The City will be hosting an OPA public consultation on June 13th for RDP; not the proposal:

What: Rail Corridor - Official Plan Amendment public consultation

When: Tuesday June 13th, 6-9pm

Where: Metro Hall Rotunda

In the fall, city council voted unanimously in favour of spending $2.4 million on preparing an implementation strategy for the eventual construction of Rail Deck Park.'
http://www.cp24.com/news/tory-says-...roposal-is-progressing-very-quickly-1.3384459

Yeah, if so hopefully they admit that they have no rights to air space and hand that 2.4 million back to where it belongs
 
Yeah, if so hopefully they admit that they have no rights to air space and hand that 2.4 million back to where it belongs
Do you have some reference for your "no rights" as per the City's claim to "air rights" over the Esplanade Corridor?

Let's cut to the chase here: Can you produce any evidence of the 'understood' claimants (CN and TTR)(TTR = CP +CN) having clear title to the land their tracks run on in the Esplanade Corridor? And subsidiary to that, title to the air-rights above that Corridor? If they have a 'concession in perpetuity', does that allow them to sell the pertaining air rights as a further 'concession'? As I read it, those 'concessions' are for rail RoW only. And even that comes with contingencies.

In all fairness...*ALL* parties at this point should step back and find out *who owns what* and be able to produce those documents in court, as this is surely where this is headed. I suspect this was all detailed up until the fifties, where suddenly 'things went missing'.

Unless the deeds magically show up before a court decision...In light of the complete absence (at least publicly) of any clear claim by ORCA and their fish friends, I go by the SCC decisions on the Statutes as discussed and referenced in this and the Rail Deck Park string.

If there are some amending decisions made later, I'd like to be made aware of them, as would John Sewell, lawyer and ex Mayor. If someone has pertinent information to this case, why would they be hiding it?
 
Last edited:
The City will be hosting an OPA public consultation on June 13th for RDP; not the proposal:

What: Rail Corridor - Official Plan Amendment public consultation

When: Tuesday June 13th, 6-9pm

Where: Metro Hall Rotunda

G.L.17, thanks for posting this. The city seems determined to build a park on the entire site - at any cost - citing a significant deficit of parkland in the downtown core. What I'd like to know is why is the city insisting on 100% parkland on this site but they're not maximizing parkland at other sites in the area? How much parkland is The Well or the residential development at 400 Front providing? Thoughts?
 
On the face of it, this proposal looks like pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking. I'd give it a zero chance of proceeding as proposed. (Probably similar odds for the Rail Deck Park too) Their deal hasn't closed, the city is opposed, no proven rights to even develop the land. Unless it has the backing of a major developer, I don't see how they have the budget to even prove they can develop in the area. Maybe they are doing this just to get some settlement money, as about all they can do is send this to court. I doubt the OMB would even consider a case where the rights to the land for other than railway is murky.
 
Doesn't sound like there's endorsement from either the local councillor of the chief planner:

Joe Cressy Retweeted
jennifer keesmaat‏Verified account@jen_keesmaat 9h9 hours ago
The city receives outlandish and ridiculous proposals all the time, says @joe_cressy. We sure do.

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...ver-conflicting-plans-for-rail-deck-park.html
Thanks for that DVR. It gives me one more chance to see if the City solicitors have done their work yet. If they have, there's no mention of it that I can find.

The name-calling has to stop, and the *evidence of ownership* has to be presented. I'm getting a little concerned on this, as what I can find makes...for want of being careful..."interesting reading".

That the City hasn't come right out and stated "Put up or shut up" is what's beguiling me. Either they know it's been theirs all along, but the implications are so profound as to how rampant 'giveaways' have been, and it's beyond embarrassing to admit it, or City Hall's solicitors are quietly trying to get the mess sorted out behind closed doors before it hits the general press.

OR: In light of the City holding punches for whatever reason, ORCA produce the documents it claims it has. Or shut up. Forever. And go away...

Edit: Although ORCA can go back to their original project: The Brooklyn Bridge.
 
(Probably similar odds for the Rail Deck Park too)
As it now stands, the cupboard is bare, but once ownership of the USRC is made clear, the City will be in a position to 'lease' lots for development, if not sell, but selling may be problematic if the Esplanade and Tripartite Statutes are enforced, or the interpretation of such by the SCC:
(This is a legal synopsis, the original Act is linked prior in this string in its entirety)(steveintoronto)

Supreme Court of Canada

Grand Trunk Railway Co. v. City of Toronto, [1910] S.C.R. 613

Date: 1910-02-15

The Grand Trunk Railway Company of Canada and the Canadian Pacific Railway Company Appellants;

and

The City of Toronto Respondent.

(Toronto Viaduct Case.)

1909: November 29, 30; 1910: February 15.
ON APPEAL FROM THE BOARD OF RAILWAY COMMISSIONERS FOR CANADA. (Who had ruled in the City's favour prior, and this decision reinforced their Parliamentary power to doing so)(Edit by Steveintoronto)
Prior to 1888, the Grand Trunk Railway Company operated a portion of its railway upon the "Esplanade," in the City of Toronto, and, in that year, the Canadian Pacific Railway Company obtained permission from the Dominion Government to fill in a part of Toronto Harbour lying south of the "Esplanade" and to lay and operate tracks thereon, which it did. Several city streets abutted on the north side of the "Esplanade," and the general public passed along the prolongations of these streets, with vehicles and on foot, for the purpose of access to the harbour. In 1892, an agreement was entered into between the city and the two railway companies respecting the removal of the sites of terminal stations, the erection of overhead traffic bridges and the closing or deviation of some of these streets. This agreement was ratified by statutes of the Dominion and provincial legislatures, the Dominion Act (56 Vict. ch. 48), providing that the works mentioned in the agreement should be works for the general advantage of Canada. To remove doubts respecting the right

[Page 614]

of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company to the use of portions of the bed of the harbour on which they had laid their tracks across the prolongations of the streets mentioned, a grant was made to that company by the Dominion Government of the "use for railway purposes" on and over the filled-in areas included within the lines formed by the production of the sides of the streets. At a later date the Dominion Government granted these areas to the city in trust to be used as public highways, subject to an agreement respecting the railways, known as the "Old Windmill Line Agreement," and excepting therefrom strips of land 66 feet in width between the southerly ends of the areas and the harbour, reserved as and for "an allowance for a public highway." In June, 1909, the Board of Railway Commissioners, on application by the city, made an order directing that the railway companies should elevate their tracks on and adjoining the "Esplanade" and construct a viaduct there. Held, Girouard and Duff, JJ. dissenting, that the Board had jurisdiction to make -such order; that the street prolongations mentioned were highways within the meaning of the "Railway Act"; that the Act of Parliament validating the agreement made in 1892 was not a "special Act" within the meaning of "The Railway Act" and did not alter the character of the agreement as a private contract affecting only the parties thereto, and that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, having acquired only a limited right or easement in the filled-in land, had not such a title thereto as would deprive the public of the right to pass over the same as a means of communication between the streets and the harbour. [...continues at length...]
https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/1910/1910canlii34/1910canlii34.html

So what in hell happened between then and now? Has the SCC overturned that ruling? I can find no evidence of such. Has the Parliament of Canada written a new Act to alter the terms and conditions stated in prior Statutes? I can find none.

So someone, somewhere had best have a damn good story as to how the City is now in the situation it is, evidently not able to clearly state: (gist) "We own that property now, and have since it was granted by the Parliament of Canada to the Legislature of Upper Canada on behalf of the Town of York, and later modified by the ParlofCan to permit the *railway* use of that RoW as an "easement" but the City retaining ownership in perpetuity".

{...Sound of Crickets Chirping...}

Edit to Add: Being Devil's Advocate, I've been researching the legalities of "easements" (as stated in both SCC and Ontario Statutes as that pertains to the Esplanade).

It's interesting as to the City perhaps violating SCC and other rulings in selling land that *perhaps* legally shouldn't have been sold, (it was granted by Parliament with the condition of "for Public Use") and in doing so:
Prescriptive Easements in Ontario. Pursuant to the Real Property Limitations Act, R.S.O. 1990, c. L.15, a prescriptive easement is established by a 20 year use. Prescription resembles adverse possession but is doctrinally different because an easement involves the right to use and does not involve a right of possession ...Mar 24, 2015
Prescriptive Easements in Ontario | William Poulos Law
www.williampouloslaw.com/blog/uncategorized/prescriptive-easements-in-ontario/

But there's a problem there....that can't apply to Federally deeded land, and even if it did pertain, the railways *still* have no ownership claim on the land, let alone the air-rights of the USRC. The railways can't use that as a claim for 'easement in perpetuity' and air rights, not the least as unless they are running tracks through that air-space, they have no claim of easement in that sector to begin with.

Hello? Where are the City's solicitors? Did Rob Ford fire all of them too? Hide the cracks?

PS: I have come across a very limited 'air-right' granted for railway easement on the Esplanade (USRC in effect), I can't provide reference right now, but it is very limited, on the order of tens of feet.

Maybe ORCA could miniaturize their project? And put it under Rail Deck Park? The Mole People could live there...
 
Last edited:
It would be nice if they would tone down those eight skyscrapers into three or four super tall buildings. So they can free up more green space to connect the park with Front street. After all the rail lands were designated for park space. A great place to host summer entertainment events etc!
 
It would be nice if they would tone down those eight skyscrapers into three or four super tall buildings. So they can free up more green space to connect the park with Front street. After all the rail lands were designated for park space. A great place to host summer entertainment events etc!

Definitely my opinion as well- they should also consolidate parking into parts of the podium to reduce the height of the park above street level.

The current design is a mess and a huge missed opportunity!
 
Definitely my opinion as well- they should also consolidate parking into parts of the podium to reduce the height of the park above street level.

The current design is a mess and a huge missed opportunity!

The whole thing sounds more like a bargaining position anyways. I'd love to see some, but less development as proposed (e.g. atop the new GO station) - and more park, partly paid for with city parkland levy as an additional source of funding (and perhaps some sponsorship and philanthropic funding as well, along the lines of Bentway/Millennium Park)

AoD
 
The name-calling has to stop, and the *evidence of ownership* has to be presented. I'm getting a little concerned on this, as what I can find makes...for want of being careful..."interesting reading".

That the City hasn't come right out and stated "Put up or shut up" is what's beguiling me.

Edit: Although ORCA can go back to their original project: The Brooklyn Bridge.
@steveintoronto the "name calling" seems to be coming from one party at the moment. The developer seems to be going about its business.

There's been a lot of discussion on this forum as to whether the developer has the right to develop the site. You've seen the OP application. Sweeny, Arup, RJC, and all the other consultants on the reports...this is not a low rent team. Putting together the OP application would likely cost millions. How many developers do you know who are crazy enough to invest that kind of money on an application if they don't at least control the land? By making an announcement for a park on land they didn't own or control, the City did say "Put up or shut up". With this application, I think we can say the developer "Put up". What more are they legally compelled to do at this point? I think you have your answer already.
 
@steveintoronto the "name calling" seems to be coming from one party at the moment.
That was exactly my point, If you read a little more studiously, you'd realize my point in wondering where the "City's solicitors" are on this?

Where's their proof of deed? C'mon, what does it take to for them to show proof? I can't take any of this seriously until someone produces title deeds. I suspect they can't, and it will take a court decision interpreting what's happened up till this point.

Lots of talk about gambling, but not a single card on the table.

Some review is in order:
[...]a group of developers who say they will soon own the air rights to build
[...]
And there remain questions over the right to building over the railway.

What’s known as “air rights” are a complicated matter in land-use planning.

Various railway companies own the rail lands and everything eight metres above it. They also own the air rights above that eight-metre mark, which the development group has an agreement to purchase — confirmed by lawyers’ letters sent to the city in September.

What is unclear are the conditions on that sale which has yet to close. Asked if there are any conditions that the land be rezoned to allow for condos and other development, the developers unequivocally said: “No.”
[...]
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...ver-conflicting-plans-for-rail-deck-park.html

That may be one reporter's take on the issue. So if that's limited information, or incorrect, then by all means, indicate otherwise and supply the information.

And btw: I'm fascinated to know when the railway companies managed to purchase the USRC. And who exactly lays claim to the "air-rights" at this time?
 
Last edited:

Back
Top