[UtakataNoAnnex]

Since this whole indignation of the name change feels like the conquerors complaining about the subjugated raising awareness of the optics of the thing, to put it mildly. Perhaps we should learn our place in all of this when dealing with issue of real concerns versus hyper political correctness here. In the end, it's about respect of those that we need to now reconcile with for our past misdeeds, IMO.

That said, to propose context to the name to address Northern Light-san's sticking point...we should just call it Black Creek "Pioneer" Village, leaving the scare quote bit open to that interpretation of it, lol.

 

[flonicky]

I thought it was a bad name from the start. It's not even near the village (unless you really enjoy long, bleak walks) and the village itself isn't open year-round. The name should reflect its purpose, which is to serve York.

I prefer geographical naming like Steeles West, York U North or York U Steeles.

 

[11th]

Since this whole indignation of the name change feels like the conquerors complaining about the subjugated raising awareness of the optics of the thing, to put it mildly. Perhaps we should learn our place in all of this when dealing with issue of real concerns versus hyper political correctness here. In the end, it's about respect of those that we need to now reconcile with for our past misdeeds, IMO.

That said, to propose context to the name to address Northern Light-san's sticking point...we should just call it Black Creek "Pioneer" Village, leaving the scare quote bit open to that interpretation of it, lol.

I don't think it's just the "conquerors" who have issues with name changes. Over half of Toronto are visible minorities and the reconciliation movement technically has little to nothing to do with them. The most they can do is to recognize indigenous people had populated this land before the Europeans, and that's about all.

 

[Northern Light]

Since this whole indignation of the name change feels like the conquerors complaining about the subjugated raising awareness of the optics of the thing, to put it mildly. Perhaps we should learn our place in all of this when dealing with issue of real concerns versus hyper political correctness here. In the end, it's about respect of those that we need to now reconcile with for our past misdeeds, IMO.

That said, to propose context to the name to address Northern Light-san's sticking point...we should just call it Black Creek "Pioneer" Village, leaving the scare quote bit open to that interpretation of it, lol.

@11th outlines one aspect of the problematic language chosen above. Let me offer another.

The surviving 'indigenous' group in southern Ontario is Iroquois; whose territory was traditionally on the south side of the great lakes.

They (the Iroquois) actually attacked, and slaughtered the local First Nations 'The Huron'; in a manner so ferocious it has been described as genocide.

Shall we refuse to name anything after those whose ancestors perpetrated such evil? Hmm?

We do run into a problem endlessly cataloguing the sins of those who haven't been alive for a dozen generations and seeking to somehow remedy their sin though symbolism that very few notice.

If one is seriously concerned about inordinate poverty, unemployment or low educational attainment in any particular social group; surely the answer is to address social programs, affordable tuitions/bursaries, guaranteed apprenticeship opportunities, and investments in infrastructure that create greater economic potential on-reserve; rather than modest efforts that will benefit no one, and waste money that might have actually benefited those adversely affected by the legacy of past events.

 

[Parkdalian]

Here's the thing, 'they' called themselves 'pioneers' and thought of themselves as such. The Village is about the group known as Pioneers; if you rename them settlers or colonialists its still about the same group.



This tells me nothing about why this village is somewhere to visit, or of educational value. Too non-descript.



I'm not attached to celebrating anyone or anything; though doing what many American cities do and naming streets and schools and congressional districts with just numbers is quite dull.

Having said that, if we choose to give something a name, endless reopening the matter adds no value and does cost money. We have homeless people that need housing, and sick people that need healthcare and an environment that needs nurturing, in that context, I don't feel flushing a few hundred thousand or million dollars down the toilet on renaming is a good use of funds.

So we should only use terms that people at the time used for themselves? We don't use many of the terms European settlers used to use - and for good reason. No one is saying the historical buildings should be razed to the ground, or we shouldn't refer to them. They are saying that our history should be thought about in a different way. A name change helps with that.

We can make the argument that there is always better ways to spend money for any issue. It's not very convincing. People can argue that we shouldn't have beautiful parks or art galleries because the money should be spent on feeding people. But that argument imagines that we should only be concerned about survival, and everything else is worthless. I respectfully disagree. We can spend money on feeding people and renaming a subway station.

Anyhoo, once again, my point is: this is the way of the world. Things change. As an old fart myself, it reeks of Old Fart-ism when people get worked up about how names are changing - and changing in ways they don't like. It seems like what they are really saying is that they wish the world would stay the way it was.

 

[Undead]

Since this whole indignation of the name change feels like the conquerors complaining about the subjugated raising awareness of the optics of the thing, to put it mildly. Perhaps we should learn our place in all of this when dealing with issue of real concerns versus hyper political correctness here. In the end, it's about respect of those that we need to now reconcile with for our past misdeeds, IMO.

That said, to propose context to the name to address Northern Light-san's sticking point...we should just call it Black Creek "Pioneer" Village, leaving the scare quote bit open to that interpretation of it, lol.

Subjugated? Which group? Don't forget the indigenous people massacred each other for centuries. Every group historically all around the world has been conquered and done conquering unto others. There's no one homogeneous indigenous experience that's in opposition to "conquerors." Similarly, the Europeans slaughtered and conquered each other just as much. edit: NL beat me to it.

The other issue is nonsense like this wastes our time and diverts our attention from real issues. I'm always reminded of Stephen Fry recounting his Inuit friend saying "call us Eskimoos; call us anything. It's how we're treated that matter."

As an old fart myself, it reeks of Old Fart-ism when people get worked up about how names are changing - and changing in ways they don't like. It seems like what they are really saying is that they wish the world would stay the way it was.

I'm a young fart, but I think the sentiment expressed is far off the mark.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

Whataboutisms is not really a great defense here or ever...it's that kinda of the tedious apologetics that really gets the debate no where. Nor does it really address the matter here as far as I am concerned. So I am not even going to bother to answer that if you don't mind...

...however, as I have indicated I am willing to look at the name in context...as I do think that's a fairly valid point. Just calling it a Something Village is fairly meaningless, unless there is some indication of what it's about. And in doing so, it needs to be done sensitively and sensibly, IMO.

And with all due respect, that's all I am going to pretty much say on the matter for now. Folks are free to disagree.

 

[mind_the_gap]

Here’s hoping that they don’t go after Kennedy next, considering the popularity RFK Jr. has gained in the States, and the TTC would have to change its’ rollsigns.

Maybe at this point they should just install LCD-screens for station signage. It would at least be cheaper in the long run, than physically changing signage every time they decide another name is all of a sudden bad.

End sarcasm.

If one is seriously concerned about inordinate poverty, unemployment or low educational attainment in any particular social group; surely the answer is to address social programs, affordable tuitions/bursaries, guaranteed apprenticeship opportunities, and investments in infrastructure that create greater economic potential on-reserve; rather than modest efforts that will benefit no one, and waste money that might have actually benefited those adversely affected by the legacy of past events.

The atrocities continue to this day… you need only look at the multitude of (recent) emergencies that have needlessly happened on Native Reserves, but sadly, all it seems to be about is assigning blame, and addressing grievances in a very superficial way, so that politicians can give their platitudes.

The Residential Schools are unforgivable.

 

[mind_the_gap]

Take ”Coca-Cola” out of it, and look at the deeper message… I dearly long for the loving, tolerant Canada I (first generation) grew up in.

What do we expect to achieve with this racial division? The Bolsheviks knew it well.

My European country was essentially a colony of Sweden for ~600 years, and then a Grand Duchy of Russia for 100+ years - who gave us our railroads - which the EU is trying to force us (and Iberia) to regauge. We fought two very bloody wars against the Red Movement. One internal, one external.

It’s funny, the history books in Canada always lied that my country attacked the Soviets first…

We paid very heavy reparations for that.

 

[turini2]

Sorry to bump this thread - have there been any proposals for TOD on these lands?
No issue with the subway underneath as far as I can tell.

 

[Northern Light]

Sorry to bump this thread - have there been any proposals for TOD on these lands?
No issue with the subway underneath as far as I can tell.

To the best of my knowledge, there isn't anything really in the pipeline here yet.

The site south of the YRT Terminal is TTC owned and Green P managed. Its not a great financial performer and will be looked at for development, but we're not there yet.

The parcel on the east side of Settler I'm not sure about, but I can tell you it does not have a legal address assigned.