In my personal opinion, Line 5 should have been totally grade separated, and the whole line built from the getgo and should have been heavy rail or something like the ontario line.

I always questioned why they would have half of an lrt buried and half of it ground level. it should have been heavy rail if its underground.

It would be more expensive but I think it would be better.

People will disagree and I would love to hear what they think.
Few will disagree with you.
This should have been grade-separated;
1) Mount Dennis to Brentcliffe (current).
2) Brentcliffe to Don Mills.
3) DVP,
4) Vic Park, O'Conner, Pharmacy,
5) Kennedy,
6) Jane,
7) Islington
8) Martin Grove.
Somebody should have looked at the whole thing and decided it needs grade-separation entirely.

LRT, just as streetcar, only works when the grade-separation is only needed at 1 or 2 interchange locations.
 
In my personal opinion, Line 5 should have been totally grade separated, and the whole line built from the getgo and should have been heavy rail or something like the ontario line.

I always questioned why they would have half of an lrt buried and half of it ground level. it should have been heavy rail if its underground.

It would be more expensive but I think it would be better.

People will disagree and I would love to hear what they think.

IMO, the original design concept - tunneled in the middle and at-grade in street median everywhere else - made sense at the time. Back in mid -200x, the province was not eager to borrow for transit expansion, and the assumption was that transit construction will be funded from the current taxes. In that situation, a fully grade-separated crosstown line with a sticker price of 12-15 billion would be either "postponed" indefinitely, or truncated to the central section only, perhaps Black Creek to Don Mills.

In a way, ECLRT got its funding partly because each political group found some of its features attractive. The LRT proponents welcomed the light rail vehicles and the network opportunities, the subway proponents welcomed the central tunneled section.

But if it was known in advance that the Eg West extension is going to follow a totally different design concept and be completely grade-separate, then it would probably be better to make the eastern section completely grade-separate as well. The technology and rolling stock similar to those proposed for OL, would be a good candidate for Eg Crosstown as well.
 
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The problem is a) the busy Eglinton / Martin Grove intersection, and b) the hydro line. Obviously, no concerns about the pleasant look in this area; just whether one more line can fit at grade or at elevation through this maze. If not, then a short tunnel may be an acceptable price for getting to the other side.

Again, the hydro lines can be raised very easily. The supporting metal towers just have to add more sections, at a low cost.
 
Yes, and they either A) Don't use it as a backbone to their transportation system, or B) are much much smaller cities like Portland or Sacramento. We're not Portland or Sacramento, we're the 4th largest city on the continent with a booming and vastly expanding population. LRT simply doesn't cut it for our major corridors.

The EWLRT isn't the backbone of the system.

Look around the world and you'll see there are large cities areas using on-street LRTs very successfully in suburban areas.
 
The EWLRT isn't the backbone of the system.

Look around the world and you'll see there are large cities areas using on-street LRTs very successfully in suburban areas.
It quite literally is. Its supposed to be the 2nd East-West connector after Bloor-Danforth. It'll be bringing people into Midtown from folks as west as Mississauga, and bringing people TO THE AIRPORT.
 
It quite literally is. Its supposed to be the 2nd East-West connector after Bloor-Danforth. It'll be bringing people into Midtown from folks as west as Mississauga, and bringing people TO THE AIRPORT.
The airport won't have much ridership thanks to UPX. I would agree with you if that was the only way to get to the airport and there was an ability to have a bus terminal on Kipling or Martin Grove.
 
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The airport won't have much ridership thanks to UPX. I would agree with you if that was the only way to get to the airport and there was an ability to have a bus terminal on Kipling or Martin Grove.
UPX is quite expensive, not everyone has the luxury to pay for it. Eglinton West as a result fulfills demand to the airport for people travelling outside the immediate downtown. Furthermore, even though there will be an UP Express station at Mt. Dennis, given that it only runs once every 15 minutes, in many cases it will probably be faster to take a grade separated Eglinton West to the airport, rather than changing at Mt. Dennis. Don't forget as well, the Airport is the largest employment center in the city. There is definitely a lot of demand.
 
UPX is quite expensive, not everyone has the luxury to pay for it. Eglinton West as a result fulfills demand to the airport for people travelling outside the immediate downtown. Furthermore, even though there will be an UP Express station at Mt. Dennis, given that it only runs once every 15 minutes, in many cases it will probably be faster to take a grade separated Eglinton West to the airport, rather than changing at Mt. Dennis. Don't forget as well, the Airport is the largest employment center in the city. There is definitely a lot of demand.
I thought so too but other airport stations in major cities in NA haven't been a complete success. We'll see. I'll be glad if it is.
 
It quite literally is. Its supposed to be the 2nd East-West connector after Bloor-Danforth. It'll be bringing people into Midtown from folks as west as Mississauga, and bringing people TO THE AIRPORT.

The backbone of the system is the YUS Line. From an E-W perspective it's the Bloor Line.

Anything we build is important, but this is projected to be a relatively lower usage line running through a relatively suburban area. An on-street solution is not only projected to have higher ridership, but with signal priority it could provide fast service at much cheaper cost.

Our neighbours to the west are building an on-street LRT as the 'backbone' of their system. There seems to be little-no complaining that it needs to go underground.
 
Except the transportation department here just suck. Even when I rode on the ION, I wasn't please and felt like the 501 Queen streetcar moved faster with ALRVs.

I visited friends in Kitchener/Waterloo three weeks ago, and as a railfan I obviously rode it. Even though my friends live a block a block away from it, they find it's not that useful:
  • It makes a lot of twists and turns, which makes it slow. I get the feeling that the tracks were spread out to provide "coverage" or to avoid disrupting traffic too much on one street. There are buses on parallel routes which seemed to have more passengers, which would overtake the LRT.
  • It avoids going through King street, either because of parking concerns or because of the yearly street festival. But that makes it further away from destinations.
  • All the one-way looping means that a round trip requires extra walking (since the same stop isn't used for both directions.)
In general it seemed to be like some compromises were made with the routing of it which reduces its transportation value. But at least it was used to catalyze zoning changes and implement some TOD, so it seems successful in terms of the condos that I could see under construction near the route.


The airport won't have much ridership thanks to UPX. I would agree with you if that was the only way to get to the airport and there was an ability to have a bus terminal on Kipling or Martin Grove.

Renforth station, one stop west of Martin Grove, will be a major bus terminal for connecting with the Missisauga transitway. The "Airport Employment Area" is a massive sprawl about the size of the entire old City of Toronto, so it would need to be serviced by a major bus depot, not just from the Terminal 3 UPX station. Personally, I used to work on the west side of the airport and got their along Eglinton but couldn't feasibly get there by transit.

I see EWLRT as being the main TTC connection to MiWay.

Yes, and they either A) Don't use it as a backbone to their transportation system, or B) are much much smaller cities like Portland or Sacramento. We're not Portland or Sacramento, we're the 4th largest city on the continent with a booming and vastly expanding population. LRT simply doesn't cut it for our major corridors.

There is this interesting article comparing Portland and Vancouver, which are about the same size. Portland has spent a lot on extending its MAX system over the last few decades, but has been running hard to stand still in terms of ridership/mode share, whereas Vancouver has consistently improved its transit mode share. The article makes the point that speed and grade separation of Skytrain is what made Vancouver's system successful.

In general, when designing our transit network we need to look at increasing the percentage of population/jobs/attractions accessible within 45 minutes by transit, not just at increasing track mileage. Fast transit displaces car trips, slow transit displaces walking/biking trips.

That being said, it could be argued that GO RER should be our "backbone" with LRT acting as a local distributor. But the GO network is radial from the core, and Eglinton is more like a circular complement to that, connecting at Mt. Dennis, Caledonia, Cedarvale, Yonge-Eglinton, Kennedy.

IMO, the original design concept - tunneled in the middle and at-grade in street median everywhere else - made sense at the time. Back in mid -200x, the province was not eager to borrow for transit expansion, and the assumption was that transit construction will be funded from the current taxes. In that situation, a fully grade-separated crosstown line with a sticker price of 12-15 billion would be either "postponed" indefinitely, or truncated to the central section only, perhaps Black Creek to Don Mills.

In a way, ECLRT got its funding partly because each political group found some of its features attractive. The LRT proponents welcomed the light rail vehicles and the network opportunities, the subway proponents welcomed the central tunneled section.

But if it was known in advance that the Eg West extension is going to follow a totally different design concept and be completely grade-separate, then it would probably be better to make the eastern section completely grade-separate as well. The technology and rolling stock similar to those proposed for OL, would be a good candidate for Eg Crosstown as well.

You're describing the only sane solution to the whole Scarborough transit mess, doing Eglinton as a westward extension of the SRT and upgrading the SRT to use the newest driverless ICTS vehicles (instead of spending $1.8 billion on a technology change to LRT.)

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It's disappointing to know that this used to be preferred option until Karen Stintz decided she wanted to be Mayor. Imagine a 100% grade-separated, continuous line from the airport to Malvern (once extended.) Elevate instead of tunneling for Eglinton east/west and you get it for significantly less money than we are spending on SSE + EWLRT + ELRT.
 

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It's disappointing to know that this used to be preferred option until Karen Stintz decided she wanted to be Mayor. Imagine a 100% grade-separated, continuous line from the airport to Malvern (once extended.) Elevate instead of tunneling for Eglinton east/west and you get it for significantly less money than we are spending on SSE + EWLRT + ELRT.

I'm not really sure it was the preferred plan. It certainly was a great political move for Ford, but it removed funding for every other project, including the Finch West LRT.

I also don't think in the long run it would've been beneficial for those on the Eglinton East corridor.
 
Adding onto my earlier post,

Spending billions to put an LRT underground is utterly stupid, if a line needs to be underground for about the same distance ECLRT runs underground than it should be heavy rail only.

LRT has its purpose, but it shouldn't be used as a subway.

Everything about this line is a mess.
 
Adding onto my earlier post,

Spending billions to put an LRT underground is utterly stupid, if a line needs to be underground for about the same distance ECLRT runs underground than it should be heavy rail only.

LRT has its purpose, but it shouldn't be used as a subway.

Everything about this line is a mess.
Agreed... if you're spending much more than $100M per km and still using LRT you have to question the technology choices.

UPX is quite expensive, not everyone has the luxury to pay for it. Eglinton West as a result fulfills demand to the airport for people travelling outside the immediate downtown. Furthermore, even though there will be an UP Express station at Mt. Dennis, given that it only runs once every 15 minutes, in many cases it will probably be faster to take a grade separated Eglinton West to the airport, rather than changing at Mt. Dennis. Don't forget as well, the Airport is the largest employment center in the city. There is definitely a lot of demand.
Isn't it going to be replaced with GO RER anyway?

UPE has to be expensive to manage demand given the trainsets and frequency they are using.
 
Adding onto my earlier post,

Spending billions to put an LRT underground is utterly stupid, if a line needs to be underground for about the same distance ECLRT runs underground than it should be heavy rail only.

LRT has its purpose, but it shouldn't be used as a subway.

Everything about this line is a mess.

That's true. Using the LRT technology only makes sense when all or most of the line actually runs on-street.

The geometry of the LRT vehicles is optimal for the street, where the horizontal space is a scarce resource while the vertical space is relatively free. Thus, the vehicles are relatively narrow, and use pantographs. This geometry isn't best for tunnels or elevated structures; vehicles with a near-round cross-section are preferred there. Plus, the LRT vehicles need to be street-worthy, protecting any electric contacts, having turn signals etc.

Selecting the LRT vehicles for a line that mostly runs underground or elevated, means blending the worst features of the two technologies (light rail and light metro) while forfeiting their best features. Expensive line construction like for light metro, plus expensive and subomptimally shaped light-rail vehicles.
 
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