unimaginative2 said:
Councillor Karen Stintz of Eglinton-Lawrence, a strong TTC supporter, says the TTC is dragging its heels because it simply doesn’t want to run a subway outside the City of Toronto. “They want to stay in their jurisdiction,†she said. The TTC did not return my call. They won’t be able to force everyone to pay a second fare in Vaughan, but they could simply charge fares by distance across the system, as other cities do.
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I don't understand why the TTC doesn't want to extend the subway outside Toronto. Montreal did it. And they could easily charge ppl. a second fare in Vaughan. Pay on exit.
 
unimaginative2 said:
That's exactly right, and that's why I've always been furious about transit activists who complain about major transit projects because they happen to think that they go too far. I mean, deal with it! Better more transit than less, let alone none at all. That's exactly what got the O-Train defeated. They extended it to Barrhaven in order to get a broad coalition of urban and suburban support, and then the ridiculous downtown transit geeks started fighting against it because "the latent demand hadn't built up sufficiently" or some other ridiculous excuse.
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You can still be a transit advocate even if you are against some ideas which don't make any sense. The transit plan in Ottawa that was cancelled by Larry O'Brien was a bad idea. Why you would want surface rail on downtown streets being at the heart of a plan that was going to add more lines as time past is beyond me. Especially when you see the effects that transit congestion has on Albert and Slater during rush hour. Same thing with the Friends of the O-Train. They came out with a plan, it was clearly filled with many more bad ideas, and has since been forgetten. Instead you have a slowly emerging plan to build a tunnel downtown which will actually allow for efficient transit, and be able to support decades worth of expansion. Maybe it will 3 or 4 years longer, but a much smarter plan that has been proposed before. So kudos to all those people, transit advocates or not, who actually questioned the original plan.

Same with the Spadina extension. Had it been proposed along side plans to alocate and enforce high density, sustainable housing and offices near its station and make full use of the line (in the same manner that many European projects are planned), it probably would have much more support. They didn't do that and given the any number of transit needs that out weigh the current Spadina plan, it was not well received. It is a good thing that those who know something about transit are in fact critical of questionable projects because debate is healthy and necessary (especially when the public at large is paying for it) and how beneficial to the overall image of transit are white elephant, half assed projects going to be in the long run?
 
If someone thinks that a white elephant is an extension used by 100,000 riders a day, especially in the context of MoveOntario's multi-billion funding promises, how beneficial is this person to transit advocacy? Not very. Must everything in this city either leave people behind on the platform or be called a failure?

Yes, the Spadina line won't see high ridership north of York U, but if it wasn't extended beyond York, none of it at all would have been built, and MoveOntario and other transit projects would never have happened.
 
@ AnarchoSocialist

The plan for Vaughan corporate centre is high-density, sustainable developments and offices. It won't be a downtown Toronto, but it will be a departure from what we've seen in the suburbs. No one can predict success or failure, but at least they are trying.

And I agree with Scarberiankhatru... this project has high symbolic value and proves that different governments can work together. A parent isn't going to will a fortune to kids it knows will fight over the inheritance.
 
Wouldn't an LRT plan from Steeles (west?) north have been more cost effective? I didn't see the need to go all the way up to hwy 7. I know that's part of the reason that the line got built but I don't think it's a wise move. You can argue for more transit no matter where it is but by that logic you could argue that the line terminate at Vaughan Mills Mall instead of 7. It already is a major destination and trip generator. Plus there is some density planned for that area as well.

I know Vaughan has plans for the Jane and 7 area to become a 'downtown' of sorts. However I'm on the side of I'll believe it when I see it. The city has done nothing but show pretty plans showing how they want the area to look like, yet have done nothing in terms of planning/process to enable this type of development or encourage it. In fact they turned down their own plan to move the new City Hall in this area in favour of renovating their current Hall.

Although it may have been a purely symbolic measure I think it would have benefitted the city to move the Hall here to show that it is serious about re-making this area into a more urban place
 
No, it would not have been more cost-effective to build a two station stub line with a completely separate infrastructure, maintenance facilities, yard, and staff.

The reason it was extended north to VCC was because York Region was the only municipality that supported any kind of subway extension. Remember, the TTC wanted a bus lane that they could someday expand to a streetcar. The only reason the entire subway line got built is because of that two station extension, which to my mind makes that extension a wonderful thing. There's no reason to extend it any further, because Vaughan hasn't made its support contingent on any further extension.
 
Transportfan said:
I don't understand why the TTC doesn't want to extend the subway outside Toronto. Montreal did it. And they could easily charge ppl. a second fare in Vaughan. Pay on exit.
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This little fiefdom pissing contest stuff is the reason I don't take the bus to work. I wouldn't mind the reading time, but paying a second fare just because I cross an imaginary line that didn't even exist till 1953? BS. Same driver, same bus, same insurance... what the hell am I paying a second fare for? Reciprocal lines ought to enough.

This is the kind of thing that drives me crazy. Motorists get constantly dumped on these days just for trying to get someplace. But when the time comes to do something practical to get people out of the cars, they do worse than bugger-all, they actually find ways to make it HARDER. Like double fares. I did the math; it completely negated any advantage I had in savings on gas. Add to that the decreased independence (can't go anywhere for lunch, can't run a quick errand during or after work), the long periods standing around waiting, the exposure to the weather, the likelihood of not getting a seat and spending an hour swaying from a pole like a chubby Chippendale dancer past his prime, and you're left wondering why would anyone do this if he or she didn't have to?

Here's how you get me on the bus. Ashcan this second fare crap, for starters. Second, let me state my mileage on my tax return and if it's under a certain number, give me a rebate for that portion of the taxes collected on gas ostensibly for dealing with pollution (can you say "straight to general revenues", kids? I knew you could...). Put real money into expanding the subways beyond parochial Toronto Proper, and LRTs that cut through hydro corridors and move people around faster than cars could.

I like the car. I like the highways. But I'm sure not averse to using public transit if they just stop making it such a pain in the ass and improve it, rather than trying to herd us onto it like some Stalinistic Five-Year Plan pounding square pegs into round holes (like greedheaded second-fares for absolutely no services rendered whatsoever). Try making a few square holes.
 
Second fares will be a thing of the past soon anyway, when we're paying based on distance travelled rather than which imaginary lines we cross.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
IYes, the Spadina line won't see high ridership north of York U,
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Sez who? What do you think all that stuff is on Hwy 400 and Black Creek Drive every morning, sight-seers? Public transit, in aid of getting people of out cars, is the archetypal example of bringing the mountain to Mohamed.

In matters like this, you need to think in terms of decades, not days. Even if there's not a lot of traffic on such a line north of York University exclusive of everything south (local trips north of York U., in other words), the fact that the line exists becomes an attraction for businesses and high density residences to locate there. The line becomes its own justification very quickly. I'm amazed at the changes I'm seeing on Sheppard since the line opened there; the single family houses from the 50s making way for buildings that will house thirty, forty times as many people. And that's been in less than a decade. Deciding where to place these lines, and then finding the will to do so, isn't just about serving the needs of now -- it's about subtly and slyly shaping the city that we'd like to have in the future.
 
khristopher said:
Second fares will be a thing of the past soon anyway, when we're paying based on distance travelled rather than which imaginary lines we cross.
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Well, anything that smacks of a fare increase doesn't please me, but that would be, at least, a policy that's democratic and whose fairness really couldn't be argued with.
 
BobBob said:
Toronto needs a benevolent dictatorship.
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If I had my druthers, I'd give Hazel McCallion another 50 years of life and the GTA presidency throughout it. Toronto itself has been run by short-sighted loonies for decades; people who look after the half a million souls downtown and barely know the other 2 million in the city, and 4 million around it in the REAL city, even exist. We need someone from New Toronto to crack the whip and get Old Toronto gazes out of Old Toronto navels. Walking up Jane Street from Steeles.. cripes.
 
Um Hazel is horrible lol. She'd be a better mayor for a smaller place like Milton or something...
 
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