[EastYorkTTCFan]

Not really talking about a shopping mall here. Though the T3 experiment was indeed absurd.

It was built like an American terminal though as it was built by American airline and Canadian airlines and their other partners. If you go to Orlando you have a hotel in the middle of the concourse as well as a food court and shops all before security, all of the major theme parks also have stores there, including Disney, Universal and Sea World.

 

[nfitz]

It was built like an American terminal though as it was built by American airline and Canadian airlines and their other partners. If you go to Orlando you have a hotel in the middle of the concourse as well as a food court and shops all before security, all of the major theme parks also have stores there, including Disney, Universal and Sea World.

Though back then, American airports didn't have passenger-only security for domestic flights (or heck much security at all).

 

[Amare]

I might’ve missed the posts here. But how did the GTAA water down T1?

The recent Pier G (or Gate 193) expansion project was watered down to become a far smaller wing (for now), rather than the copy of Pier E that was originally envisioned. They claimed at the time (and was their rational) that a lot of the upgrades will make better use of existing spaces, rather than creating new ones. Unfortunately I cant find the original master plans for the original expansion so it's hard to visually compare the 2 sets of plans.

The current plans have them a new H building (at the back of Pier G), while holding off on investing in a large pier for G. Theoretically the plans would allow for a future-proofing to expand Pier G, but if that's the way they were thinking it would make little sense to cheap out on the initial Pier G expansion while deciding to first build an H building first.

Here's the most recent expansion plans the GTAA has on the books (note the watered down Pier G):

Quotes from the GTAA master plan:

• In the area east of Terminal 1, we plan to expand the Gate 193 Extension, expand the terminal processor and construct a new Concourse H, as well as extending the apron areas to the east and northeast.
• We plan to add gate capacity between Pier A and Terminal 3, and subsequently develop the areas west of Pier A.
• We expect to link Terminal 1 and Terminal 3 by expanding their existing structures to the west and the east, respectively. Construction of the proposed regional transit centre to the north of the existing terminals (see“Chapter 8. Ground Access System”) would allow us to start incremental development of additional passenger-processing capacity.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

This is what the plan was in the 2008 MP. I don't know how much the current Pier G/gate 193 expansion differs from the 2008 plan but I do know that it was indeed reduced from the original scope. Going form essentially a copy of Pier E to having fewer gates and amenities.

**EDIT** Did a bit more digging. Pier E has 17 bridged gates while Pier G only has 6 ground walk out gates and 5 commuter aircraft sized bridged gates.

 

[Amare]

This is what the plan was in the 2008 MP. I don't know how much the current Pier G/gate 193 expansion differs from the 2008 plan but I do know that it was indeed reduced from the original scope. Going form essentially a copy of Pier E to having fewer gates and amenities.

**EDIT** Did a bit more digging. Pier E has 17 bridged gates while Pier G only has 6 ground walk out gates and 5 commuter aircraft sized bridged gates.

View attachment 403859

Awesome find @Woodbridge_Heights.

Pretty much shows the Terminal 1 physical expansion space has been watered down as well.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Awesome find @Woodbridge_Heights.

Pretty much shows the Terminal 1 physical expansion space has been watered down as well.

Thx. After the disappearance of the 1999 master plan I made a point of saving the 2008 plan on my google drive.

 

[Amare]

^Apparently the Toronto Public Library still has their hands on the 1999 master plans:

The airport master plan [2000-2020]

The airport master plan [2000-2020], GTAA , Toronto Public Library

www.torontopubliclibrary.ca

Edit: UT also has another vantage point of the 2008 master plan (the one prior to the water down im referring to) and what you managed to dig up.

Transit Hub Signals Bold Reinvention of Toronto's Pearson Airport | UrbanToronto

Officially announced today, the bold Pearson Transit Hub could re-invent Canada's largest airport into a multi-modal global hub.

urbantoronto.ca

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

^Apparently the Toronto Public Library still has their hands on the 1999 master plans:

The airport master plan [2000-2020]

The airport master plan [2000-2020], GTAA , Toronto Public Library

www.torontopubliclibrary.ca

Edit: UT also has another vantage point of the 2008 master plan (the one prior to the water down im referring to) and what you managed to dig up.

Transit Hub Signals Bold Reinvention of Toronto's Pearson Airport | UrbanToronto

Officially announced today, the bold Pearson Transit Hub could re-invent Canada's largest airport into a multi-modal global hub.

urbantoronto.ca

View attachment 403867

Dang! Too bad they don't have digital copies. Nice find though!

 

[nfitz]

Dang! Too bad they don't have digital copies. Nice find though!

Archive.org has digital copies

https://web.archive.org/web/2005040.../Index.aspx?Sid=Node7/Node7.3/Node7.3.5&Tpl=1

 

[nfitz]

Here's the post-2015 plan

 

[Tim MacDonald]

G was revised some time ago because it wasn't needed right now. Now that the old CP Hangar A has been demolished after Air Canada built their new barn replacing the original DC-8 hangar, that area can accommodate additional T3 gates. As an aside, I hating pushing back Boeing 737s from what used to be Gate B9 because that hangar was so close and at one point a co-worker pushed a jet right into the corner of the building. I think that dented sheet metal remained until the hangar was demolished.

I'm old enough to remember the T3 satellite terminal being built and finished with the plastic still on most of the boarding lounge furniture because the demand wasn't there and the five gate boarding lounge not activated. Eventually, the plastic came off for film shoots. For almost a decade only comair (Delta connection) and maybe Trans World Express in the later years used the three walk out commuter jet hard stands on the north west side until June of 2000 when Air Canada moved international operations to the original T1 and kicked out the likes of Royal, Canada 3000 and Air Transat (among others) from the original T1. That was roughly when the bridges were hung and those five gates saw more than just parking.

Building terminals is expensive and operating them empty also pricey. Eventually, I am sure it will be built but you've still got a ten gate infield terminal that I believe is still idle. and could be used until it is torn down for the North De-ice pad.

 

[Amare]

G was revised some time ago because it wasn't needed right now. Now that the old CP Hangar A has been demolished after Air Canada built their new barn replacing the original DC-8 hangar, that area can accommodate additional T3 gates. As an aside, I hating pushing back Boeing 737s from what used to be Gate B9 because that hangar was so close and at one point a co-worker pushed a jet right into the corner of the building. I think that dented sheet metal remained until the hangar was demolished.

I'm old enough to remember the T3 satellite terminal being built and finished with the plastic still on most of the boarding lounge furniture because the demand wasn't there and the five gate boarding lounge not activated. Eventually, the plastic came off for film shoots. For almost a decade only comair (Delta connection) and maybe Trans World Express in the later years used the three walk out commuter jet hard stands on the north west side until June of 2000 when Air Canada moved international operations to the original T1 and kicked out the likes of Royal, Canada 3000 and Air Transat (among others) from the original T1. That was roughly when the bridges were hung and those five gates saw more than just parking.

Building terminals is expensive and operating them empty also pricey. Eventually, I am sure it will be built but you've still got a ten gate infield terminal that I believe is still idle. and could be used until it is torn down for the North De-ice pad.

Great insight! Wouldnt have ever known about any of that if you didnt share.

 

[kEiThZ]

I wish they had used COVID to start work on the 6th runway.

 

[IRT_BMT_IND]

It wasn't actually the GTAA that opened Terminal 3. Since T3 was privately developed Lockheed AIr Terminal and their Canadian partner bet heavily on the ancillary revenue aspect so the "shopping mall" on the departure level was a centerpiece. T3 operated for five years before the GTAA assumed control in December of 96 as I recall.

My memory is a little fuzzy at this point since I was working mainly out of Terminal 2 but when the September 11th attacks occurred all that pre-security shopping became a liability. I don't know if it closed then or when they did the renos adding the new international check-in desks at the south end or when they added the new security screening area access earlier this decade.

I'm not sure it really is a good idea to turn the airport or associated transit hub into a destination per se and attract crowds of people that aren't travelling. Pre 9/11 in the states when non-passengers could go to the gate areas in US airports it made no sense since it could delay folks travelling. It would be one thing if it was a downtown area but face it - it is located in an industrial area of Mississauga that won't become a leisure destination unto itself.

I (kinda) remember the landside shopping area at T3, it definitely lasted a few years beyond 9/11. I remember there being a licensed mini-Harrods (I think this did not survive too long), a Virgin CD store, I think a duty free shop and several full sit-down restaurants. It reflected a time when you could linger landside and only go through security shortly before your flight because you reasonably could expect it to be quick. After 9/11 the selection of stores pivoted more to typical airport stuff (think Relay newsstands and crappy food court stuff) and it became increasingly vacant. The liquid and gels rules a few years after 9/11 probably didn't help much either.

T3 was a marvel when it opened compared to the existing facilities that the feds still owned, which had the ambiance of a Greyhound station.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

G was revised some time ago because it wasn't needed right now. Now that the old CP Hangar A has been demolished after Air Canada built their new barn replacing the original DC-8 hangar, that area can accommodate additional T3 gates. As an aside, I hating pushing back Boeing 737s from what used to be Gate B9 because that hangar was so close and at one point a co-worker pushed a jet right into the corner of the building. I think that dented sheet metal remained until the hangar was demolished.

I'm old enough to remember the T3 satellite terminal being built and finished with the plastic still on most of the boarding lounge furniture because the demand wasn't there and the five gate boarding lounge not activated. Eventually, the plastic came off for film shoots. For almost a decade only comair (Delta connection) and maybe Trans World Express in the later years used the three walk out commuter jet hard stands on the north west side until June of 2000 when Air Canada moved international operations to the original T1 and kicked out the likes of Royal, Canada 3000 and Air Transat (among others) from the original T1. That was roughly when the bridges were hung and those five gates saw more than just parking.

Building terminals is expensive and operating them empty also pricey. Eventually, I am sure it will be built but you've still got a ten gate infield terminal that I believe is still idle. and could be used until it is torn down for the North De-ice pad.

I'm all for delaying new construction until demand warrants it, and the IFT is a wonderful asset that allows YYZ to temporarily expand gate capacity seasonally (i.e. high demand travel periods) or while waiting for baseline demand to reach a level where new terminal construction is warranted. One additional thing to note is that the average capacity of aircraft landing at YYZ has slowly increased of the past few decades, and this allows the airport to serve more passengers without the need to increase it's number of gates or runway capacity.

However I also feel like GTAA has spoken out of both sides of their mouth here. On the one had they've reduced the scope of Pier G due to the above noted factors, on the other in their most recent MP they have shown their vision of the airport in 30+ years where the entire current airport structure is turned into a giant terminal with passenger processing moved to the proposed intermodal transit hub (see image below). My point being, if you say the demand doesn't exist RIGHT NOT but you still project the demand to be there in the near to mid future, why are you handicapping your infrastructure with a half baked solution. Instead why not wait until demand reaches a point where the originally planned design is warranted and do that.