nfitz
Superstar
And yet many in London still whine abut how poor their transit is. Tube to bus connections in London are often not very pretty, for example. The grass is always golder greener ...
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- Thread starter Smiffy
- Start date
urbanclient
Active Member
To correct my grievous mistake of cherry picking data, can someone help me un-cherry pick the data on Stockholm and Toronto? Help verify these numbers?
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You said Stockholm was less than a million people (which is correct). But then you choose a larger area, which includes Stockholm and elsewhere, and prove that is less dense than Toronto. But you use a population much more than a million?
Please stop gaslighting us."
Otherwise, Stockholm seems to have a larger metro system despite being a geographically smaller, and less dense city.
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Person who kindly points out my mistakes: "Because Stockholm is much much smaller than Toronto, and more dense. Also there are attached urban areas outside of the old city itself. The main urban area is 1.6 million, and still half the size of the city of Toronto."
Person who kindly points out my mistakes: "Only if you cherry pick the data.
You said Stockholm was less than a million people (which is correct). But then you choose a larger area, which includes Stockholm and elsewhere, and prove that is less dense than Toronto. But you use a population much more than a million?
Please stop gaslighting us."
Otherwise, Stockholm seems to have a larger metro system despite being a geographically smaller, and less dense city.
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doady
Senior Member
ION in Waterloo Region seems to be doing quite well. *shrug*
Bojaxs
Senior Member
I know this article will recieve a lot of negative reception from this forum. Yes, it's Brad Bradford. Yes, it's the National Post. Regardless, I can't disagree with most of what Brad is saying.
My only disagreement is, I think we should move forward with the eastern streetcar extension along Lakeshore. But hopefully considerations are made during the planning & construction of the extension to allow for faster operating streetcars.
Rob Ford was right — Toronto needs underground transit | National Post https://share.google/sbdIPKeQO6N4McC8d
My only disagreement is, I think we should move forward with the eastern streetcar extension along Lakeshore. But hopefully considerations are made during the planning & construction of the extension to allow for faster operating streetcars.
Rob Ford was right — Toronto needs underground transit | National Post https://share.google/sbdIPKeQO6N4McC8d
Towered
Superstar
Sigh...
Subways makes sense in some places, but not along suburban arterials that a) don't have the density to justify the exorbitant cost, and b) are wide enough to easily accommodate surface ROW's.
Transit expansion planning should not be viewed through a black and white lens.
jje1000
Senior Member
The issue (as beaten to death endlessly) is also because LRT speeds in Toronto are too slow, and the transit mode is also conflated with the streetcar system in Toronto, which also requires its own reform. As it stands at the moment, Ford's assertion that Streetcar-LRTs = slow has been vindicated by the Finch LRT.
That being said, crisis leads to opportunity, and changes done to the Finch LRT's speeds could be used to finally crack the signal priority issue on other LRT lines that has somehow never been touched for decades.
globalnews.ca
That being said, crisis leads to opportunity, and changes done to the Finch LRT's speeds could be used to finally crack the signal priority issue on other LRT lines that has somehow never been touched for decades.
How Toronto’s stuttering launch of the Finch West LRT could fix its streetcars - Toronto | Globalnews.ca
Disappointment at the launch of the new transit line has sparked a review of the entire streetcar network experts say could lead to major changes.
globalnews.ca
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duty free
Active Member
This is just the prevailing ethos in the GTA. We’re in the vast minority. The majority think this way.
Should Finch West have been a subway? No of course not. Would it have been better idea to BRT? Probably.
Does Toronto need more subway lines? Definitely. How much more? 2 or 3 times as many kilometers and stations than what currently exists. The subway system is way under built as has been for four decades.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Our region's penchant for big infrastructure projects is holding us back. If we expanded our subway and metro systems piecemeal, we would have staggered openings of different extensions throughout these decades and into the future.
There is absolutely zero sense, and I mean zero sense, that the Yonge Line hasn't been extended to Steeles for instance.
There is absolutely zero sense, and I mean zero sense, that the Yonge Line hasn't been extended to Steeles for instance.
north-of-anything
Active Member
At least the next steps are headed in that direction - Line 1 to Richmond Hill, Line 2 to Sheppard, hopefully Line 4 to Sheppard West and the Queen's Quay East streetcar. Not to mention transforming GO rail into something more closely resembling rapid transit.
We don't need 2 to 3 times as many subway corridors if the existing infrastructure can be maximized.
lead82
Senior Member
Bingo. Toronto and the GTA should be maximizing its infrastructure- a few simple changes can make buses and streetcars and LRT so much faster - all operating issues. Our subway line like Line 1 and two need to fix the rail slow zone permanently and fix operational issues to deal with people problems and prioritize movement of trains.
Similarly, our GO system is a relic. It needs to be way faster then what it is and that requires different trains and electrification much faster. Will we ever see Lakeshore fully electric? Hopefully in less than 10 years but I’m not holding my breath. Ultimately Toronto fails over bad governance.
Similarly, our GO system is a relic. It needs to be way faster then what it is and that requires different trains and electrification much faster. Will we ever see Lakeshore fully electric? Hopefully in less than 10 years but I’m not holding my breath. Ultimately Toronto fails over bad governance.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Even minor things like platform screen doors that prevents wanderers on track level (sadly feels like it has become a daily occurrence) fall into this category. A capital expense that probably pays for itself in short order due to the saved commuter hours lost to disruption.
afransen
Senior Member
The trouble is that we don't have $200B to triple the size of the subway network if we're going to be so utterly incompetent when it comes to transit procurement and delivery as Metrolinx has shown itself to be. When OL costs upwards of $1B/km, it is looking pretty hopeless. We need to fix our utterly dysfunctional bureaucracy, before it bankrupts us or allows us to be strangled by gridlock.
We need to think of transit development not as big shiny projects. What we need to develop is an organization that can steadily deliver right-sized, right-costed transit on a continuous basis. The machine that makes the machine.
nfitz
Superstar
We've been discussing the reason that hasn't happened yet for years. Because there isn't (or at least pre-Covid wasn't) enough available capacity on Line 1, and especially Bloor-Yonge station, to handle the resulting increase in ridership.
So there's very good reasons that it hasn't gone first, after phase 1 of Sheppard. But that that the Relief line didn't get started around the time of Sheppard is where the zero sense (zero cents?
) was.This is why that even of the 4 big projects announced around 2019 (Ontario, Line 2 to Sheppard, Line 5 to Renfrew, and Line 1 to Richmond Hill), that the Yonge extension has been the last one to get going - so that the Ontario line opens first.
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
Kind of have to raise a caveat here. Platform screen doors have been costed out at a million dollars a door to retrofit lines 1 and 2 I think. One struggles to see how each 6 metres of sliding door costs 3 times as much as a Rolls of the same length, but I was shouted down when I questioned the cost-benefit ratio. Until we come to terms with the insane cost of things difficult choices will have to me made.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
The issue with this statement being that these commuters are already on the system, they are taking the Steeles bus to Finch Station or connecting via VIVA/YRT routes, creating an ungodly traffic congestion in the stretch between Finch and Steeles on Yonge.We've been discussing the reason that hasn't happened yet for years. Because there isn't (or at least pre-Covid wasn't) enough available capacity on Line 1, and especially Bloor-Yonge station, to handle the resulting increase in ridership.
So there's very good reasons that it hasn't gone first, after phase 1 of Sheppard. But that that the Relief line didn't get started around the time of Sheppard is where the zero sense (zero cents?
This is why that even of the 4 big projects announced around 2019 (Ontario, Line 2 to Sheppard, Line 5 to Renfrew, and Line 1 to Richmond Hill), that the Yonge extension has been the last one to get going - so that the Ontario line opens first.
So we are punishing existing riders with worse service on a route that should have been served by an adequate rapid transit connection decades ago because we want to take a system approach to transit planning in this region. The same approach that is dependent on so many variables going right from three levels of government for anything to get done, while institutional knowledge from past expansion is lost through retirements and obsolescence.
I am sure I was on the opposite side of this point a decade-plus ago, but age and weariness has definitely pushed me to the 'just built it' camp.