When did I say anything about creating bureaucracy or bringing unit designs before panels? Critique is its own realm; to want and create better by discussion and critique. Not settling for whatever developers will spit out.

As for the rest of your response, I still stand in complete disagreement. I'm still hearing "as long as people will snap them up, the floorplans are good." Do you think those look like good layouts? If yes, then we fundamentally disagree. If no, then why on earth would you argue for settling for bad floorplans just because the public will buy them?

People will most certainly buy whatever is supplied to them. Sometimes they sell very poorly and are redesigned, but that is in specific cases. People want to be downtown and will buy crappy layouts in order to get to live in that area. So developers get away with providing crappy layouts. That doesn't make them immune to critique, in fact I think it's websites like this above any others that should be pressuring them to provide better instead of enabling them at every turn.

Carry on.

interchange42 said:
If Massey Tower's floor plans had not provided what purchasers were looking for, they would not have sold. They sold. Maybe a few suites are left.
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That's supply/demand and the capitalist market, which is a very different criteria than good architecture.

I rent a unit because it met my needs; which were to be something I could afford, downtown, near the subway. I could only afford to have those criteria when searching. But is it a good unit layout? It's horrible. It's not a good layout at all. It's not good design. But the owner bought it, and many owners buy their own units so they can have a place that matches their criteria, yet to actually live in the unit, are not satisfied with its layout.

Good architecture and design =/= Steady supply and demand

Architectural critique = Not settling for what supply we are given
 
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"Real" ppl don't buy these units: iirc, MT was sold mostly to foreign investors. Think China, Dubai, Iran, Germany. I've got data from my website to prove it! Oh and you know what else I do...:D)
 
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urbandreamer said:
"Real" ppl don't buy these units: iirc, MT was sold mostly to foreign investors. Think China, Dubai, Iran, Germany. I've got data from my website to prove it! Oh and you know what else I do...:D)
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Many are investors, but many are people who just want/need to live downtown and will buy whatever is available that checks off their list of criteria. But to tell people "well you bought it, so it must be good enough!" is a meaningless statement is what I'm arguing.

An even bigger part would be people who ARE from the city, but who purchase the unit to rent out to some other poor suckers ;)
 
Do you go to those presale VIP events? I went to a bunch the past few years and it's depressing: all ppl care about is the idea they're gonna make a buck, granite countertops and the view. Yawn. Your average condo "investor" is today's version of suburban '80s sprawl.

The problem with the "cool" stuff like Abacus, DUKE etc is it's aimed at the urban elite--the $ crowd. I believe good design can be made available to the masses ... mostly through clever marketing to developers.
 
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thecharioteer said:
For which they won Model Suite of the Year from both BILD and the OHBA:
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I hate to say it, but it's a mostly meaningless award. Look at who BILD and OHBA are. The OHBA, in fact, are known for lobbying to keep standards lower and costs down for homebuilders/developers. They're lobbyists. They represent the development INDUSTRY.

BILD and OHBA both represent development corporations. I'm not demonizing them, but just something to keep in mind. They have their own loyalties and priorities. You can call anything an "award" and it will sound impressive, but there is more beneath it.

For the record, I'm just voicing my thoughts. I'm not trying to be condescending, or pretentious, or anything like that. It just pains me to see people defending mediocrity or accepting what we are given because "people will buy it". It's not a negative, bad thing to want better for people and critique what we are being given. It's what design is based on-- critique, and (positive) improvement. Anyone who is passionate about design and architecture will push for better, especially when developers are pulling massive profits.
 
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For someone who has "No skin in this game", there truly appears many that hold an "Opinion".

Regards,
J T
 
thecharioteer said:
For which they won Model Suite of the Year from both BILD and the OHBA:



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Model Suite of the Year nonsense is just marketing.

Those images look like an 80's hotel room from Wolf of Wall Street.

Spire, it appears to the 'mods' of this forum are loathe to offend the MOD's of the development industry. I question whether ad dollars plays a factor.
 
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SP!RE said:
For the record, I'm just voicing my thoughts. I'm not trying to be condescending, or pretentious, or anything like that. It just pains me to see people defending mediocrity or accepting what we are given because "people will buy it". It's not a negative, bad thing to want better for people and critique what we are being given. It's what design is based on-- critique, and (positive) improvement. Anyone who is passionate about design and architecture will push for better, especially when developers are pulling massive profits.
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I'm not against critique, but I see little of that here from anyone. Valuable critique depends upon a discernible presentation of some object and then a listing of the elements where the critic finds it lacking. Big Daddy's "Oh and did I mention the awful floor plans" and CN Tower's "looks like an 80s' hotel room from Wolf of Wall Street" are not critiques, just slams.

BTW, that suite looks nothing like any room from Wolf of Wall Street.

42
 
Maybe he's thinking of Leo's PH?

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-Wolf-Wall-Street-film-hits-market-6-5M.html
 

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CN Tower said:
I'd rather see an office tower or office space here. This jazzy box sets a crappy precedent if approved. MOD would be getting away with highway robbery to get that kind of residential density in this non-residential node.

I hope the OMB sees it that way too.
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Good luck finding any major office tenants that want a floorplate that small.
 
I wouldn't say it looks like an 80's hotel room, but it does look like a hotel room! Now a days I can't tell the difference between a condo and a hotel room. They are starting to look all alike.
 
urbandreamer said:
Do you go to those presale VIP events? I went to a bunch the past few years and it's depressing: all ppl care about is the idea they're gonna make a buck, granite countertops and the view. Yawn. Your average condo "investor" is today's version of suburban '80s sprawl.

The problem with the "cool" stuff like Abacus, DUKE etc is it's aimed at the urban elite--the $ crowd. I believe good design can be made available to the masses ... mostly through clever marketing to developers.
Click to expand...

I agree with this observation, and am a fan of the smaller (low-rise?) developments we've seen on the west end over the past few years (Abacus, Nero, and 109oz come to mind)
 
urbandreamer said:
Do you go to those presale VIP events? I went to a bunch the past few years and it's depressing: all ppl care about is the idea they're gonna make a buck, granite countertops and the view. Yawn. Your average condo "investor" is today's version of suburban '80s sprawl.

The problem with the "cool" stuff like Abacus, DUKE etc is it's aimed at the urban elite--the $ crowd. I believe good design can be made available to the masses ... mostly through clever marketing to developers.
Click to expand...

At the height of the condo boom it was fun to watch how people would lose their minds over buying a unit. Some didn't even care about the view or finishes. Just the PPSF.
 
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