[Bojaxs]

Harris gets a bad rap.
He built transit at a similar rate than most other Premiers. And he started with a terrible economy where there was not much available money. Even McGuinty/Wynne made plenty of announcement but continually delayed design to slow the flow of money.
I think he should have built the tunnel (launch shaft was started) and done the stations at a later time.

You are aware that Harris didn't just cancel construction on the Eglinton West subway line. He also had a partially constructed station filled in with concrete so to ensure no future construction on the line could return.

 

[Westey]

You are aware that Harris didn't just cancel construction on the Eglinton West subway line. He also had the partially completed stations filled in with concrete so to ensure no future construction on the line could return.

If this were true, I guess the current Cedarvale station was actually built below the concrete?
Or was it just the launch shaft, which was located where the Allen Station would be, that was filled with unshrinkable fill (soil with some added cement to stabilize the soil and eliminate settlements). Unshrinkable fill has a strength of about 0.5 to 0.7 MPa - far less than the 20 to 30 MPa for concrete. It is half the cost of concrete too.

Was Harris so bad at being evil that he spent double to fill in the hole to prevent any future construction and he failed miserably at it?

 

[Amare]

Harris gets a bad rap.
He built transit at a similar rate than most other Premiers. And he started with a terrible economy where there was not much available money. Even McGuinty/Wynne made plenty of announcement but continually delayed design to slow the flow of money.
I think he should have built the tunnel (launch shaft was started) and done the stations at a later time.

• I am not sure if this was actually feasible (e.g. was the road clear of obstacles for a 5-year mothball?
• I don't know the costs back then, but the tunnelling itself is roughly 15% (?) of the total, so for a not huge cost he could have continued the Eglinton subway at a slower pace.

What surprises me most is people who dislike Harris cancelling the subway but are happy that the LRT was built. The only reason LRT could be built was because of Harris so he should be a hero.

He gets a bad rap, because he was dreadful in every way, shape, and form imaginable.

For the sake of this thread I wont delve into the details, but when you have someone who single handedly destroyed transit infrastructure, transportation infrastructure, the public healthcare system, the education system, rental housing, and numerous other systems, then yes you will rightly have a very bad wrap.

To this day he still generates a visceral reaction (regardless of political stripes) because he's a vile, disgusting individual who destroyed things like no other politician ever has.

The reason why an LRT is being built on Hurontario has nothing to do with Mike Harris, plain and simple. So let's stop that absurd notion.

 

[Bojaxs]

If this were true, I guess the current Cedarvale station was actually built below the concrete?
Or was it just the launch shaft, which was located where the Allen Station would be, that was filled with unshrinkable fill (soil with some added cement to stabilize the soil and eliminate settlements). Unshrinkable fill has a strength of about 0.5 to 0.7 MPa - far less than the 20 to 30 MPa for concrete. It is half the cost of concrete too.

Was Harris so bad at being evil that he spent double to fill in the hole to prevent any future construction and he failed miserably at it?

You should research the proposed Eglinton West line. It was to be constructed as a stub line that never went east of the University line. Although, that's not to say it couldn't have been extended further eastward in the future.

Eglinton West line - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[JasonParis]

You are aware that Harris didn't just cancel construction on the Eglinton West subway line. He also had a partially constructed station filled in with concrete so to ensure no future construction on the line could return.

He also eliminated all provincial funding for transit operations, making us the jurisdiction with the highest fare-box recovery in the Western world—further fueling the transit death spiral.

 

[T3G]

What surprises me most is people who dislike Harris cancelling the subway but are happy that the LRT was built. The only reason LRT could be built was because of Harris so he should be a hero.

So what you are saying is: the person who spilled the milk should be a hero because someone else who came after them had an opportunity to clean it up????

You're not going to find anyone who is happy that the LRT was built because it's an LRT instead of a subway. They're happy someone came along and restarted the project after Harris totally screwed everything up.

Suggesting that Transit City, a potentially flawed but ultimately well intentioned plan to deliver rapid transit to communities which had none, was more harmful than someone who gutted basically anything worth having in this province, and who then went on to chair private nursing home which had awful outcomes during COVID... well, that takes a lot of imagination, that's for sure. Any other awful people we'd like to claim were actually misunderstood heroes as part of the LRT hate fest? "Mussolini made the trains run on time", anyone?

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

So a clown who was in power for 7 years who absolutely destroyed transit in virtually every municipality in Ontario through: the elimination of operating subsidies, cancellation of various transit expansion plans, refused to provide capital funds for infrastructure replacement, etc. was less harmful to transit in the GTA than a plan that attempted to improve transit in Toronto?

I mean, what now?

Let's make one thing very clear; Mike Harris was the worst thing that's ever happened to Ontario in the past century. He destroyed this province in ways that we are still trying to recover from.

As others have stated, opportunity cost is a real thing, and we can’t simply push the rewind button on the horribly designed Line 6, Line 5 surface section, or this Line 10.

The capital that we have to expend on transit infrastructure is finite and the transit city obsession with light rail has left us with a very expensive buildout of rail that is slower than buses.

 

[Amare]

As others have stated, opportunity cost is a real thing, and we can’t simply push the rewind button on the horribly designed Line 6, Line 5 surface section, or this Line 10.

The capital that we have to expend on transit infrastructure is finite and the transit city obsession with light rail has left us with a very expensive buildout of rail that is slower than buses.

I dont disagree with you that we have a finite amount to spend on infrastructure, and we should actually use those limited resources properly and maximize the output.

Unfortunately, our politicians dont think the same way and are content with pissing away money and getting the worst outcome for every $$ spent. They either:

a) spend mass amounts money on things that they dont fully optimize because of idiocy,
b) spend mass amounts and overbuild needlessly on corridors that dont warrant it (ie: Eglinton West LRT),
c) or spend mass amounts on bare minimum basic infrastructure because they dont know what they are doing (ie: various GO Stations).

It's not just LRT where we're getting bad value for every $ spent, it's virtually everything that's transit infrastructure related. Simply because our politicians dont know what the hell they are doing, and choose to waste money because PPP is the apparent saviour to public-sector funds not being spent properly.

(Hint: PPP it isnt the saviour, the problem is that politicians dont know how to do basic arithmetic and dont know how to scope and build contracts properly).

 

[crs1026]

There’s no question that LRT is under the microscope and bears the onus to prove its worth in the Toronto environment.

But gee, didn’t TYSSE do marvellously as an on-time, on budget subway project? Didn’t the underground portions of Crosstown - which for all intents was subway construction - happen so smoothly? Is the Line 2 extension going smoothly?

One has to look past the construction foibles and look at what the line produces, and how well it serves the need after 10 years or more.

The real enemy was not Harris alone but a whole decade of politicians of all sides who weren’t willing to spend money on anything, period. I would say the failure to complete the Sheppard Line 4 as a subway, from STC to Wilson Line 1, is the biggest failure of them all. And that was not a failure because the LRT vs subway decision was botched - it’s because neither option was pursued.

Is LRT workable in the Toronto environment? We don’t know - yet. The apathetic manner in which it is being implemented does not inspire confidence. Would it be good enough west of Mount Dennis if it were on the surface? I’m willing to say, possibly, because Central Etobicoke will fight density along Eglinton and the underground will be excessive. And if we had that excess spend back, and get that money spent on Sheppard instead, I would be a lot happier.

I’m dubious about whether Hurontario woukd ever have the density to make a subway worth the cost, and we have yet to see how well the lRT performs in terms of speed snd ridership.

I’m not willing to say LRT works yet, but a strategic mix seems more appealing with efforts to make LRT right, than to say we should only build subways. But yeah, certain agencies better get moving or LRT is gonna fall off the table.

- Paul

 

[ericmacm]

I think saying that LRT should never be built again is a pretty absolutist take, but what has happened with Line 6 is certainly worth being concerned about. I think we need to see how far they can get in fixing the issues on Line 6 over the next few months, but I largely agree that Line 5 and Line 10 are also most likely going to have a difficult time once they open. Ottawa's Confederation Line and Edmonton's Valley Line are the two best points of comparison and both have had a lot of issues.

My personal opinion here is that LRT is probably not the correct transit mode in most cases for what the general public expects to get out of billions of dollars in transit spending, as well as the future plans and expectations we are placing on the corridors. Speeds and reliability similar to those provided by the subway systems are what is expected from LRT in the public eye, and the governments treat these LRT systems like subway systems anyway when zoning changes are being made for extremely dense transit-oriented development along the lines. Surface LRTs obviously face significantly more technical challenges compared to subways, in that you have to deal with conflicts in signal priority, conflicts with road vehicles, and conflicts with weather. When you combine these technical challenges with long-term subway-like expectations, it is my opinion that LRT is inadequate, and will probably be overwhelmed long before their design lives are over. I think that smaller, less dense cities in our country can make a reasonable case for LRT (as with what has happened in Kitchener, and was on the table in London), but for a region like the GTA which is fast becoming very integrated, urban, and dense, the expectations that are being put on these systems warrants subways or winterized, fully grade-separated metro lines. It may be more expensive up-front and demand may not be there immediately, but I believe they will be useful for much longer than LRT.

 

[Voltz]

I think saying that LRT should never be built again is a pretty absolutist take, but what has happened with Line 6 is certainly worth being concerned about. I think we need to see how far they can get in fixing the issues on Line 6 over the next few months, but I largely agree that Line 5 and Line 10 are also most likely going to have a difficult time once they open. Ottawa's Confederation Line and Edmonton's Valley Line are the two best points of comparison and both have had a lot of issues.

My personal opinion here is that LRT is probably not the correct transit mode in most cases for what the general public expects to get out of billions of dollars in transit spending, as well as the future plans and expectations we are placing on the corridors. Speeds and reliability similar to those provided by the subway systems are what is expected from LRT in the public eye, and the governments treat these LRT systems like subway systems anyway when zoning changes are being made for extremely dense transit-oriented development along the lines. Surface LRTs obviously face significantly more technical challenges compared to subways, in that you have to deal with conflicts in signal priority, conflicts with road vehicles, and conflicts with weather. When you combine these technical challenges with long-term subway-like expectations, it is my opinion that LRT is inadequate, and will probably be overwhelmed long before their design lives are over. I think that smaller, less dense cities in our country can make a reasonable case for LRT (as with what has happened in Kitchener, and was on the table in London), but for a region like the GTA which is fast becoming very integrated, urban, and dense, the expectations that are being put on these systems warrants subways or winterized, fully grade-separated metro lines. It may be more expensive up-front and demand may not be there immediately, but I believe they will be useful for much longer than LRT.

Such a long post to heap much more on the pile of requirements for an LRT to be suitable and acceptable. I don't know how it is such a hard concept for some to grasp that big cities can have corridors that don't need subways, just like they have corridors that don't need highways.

The operational problems with the Finch LRT are not exclusive to LRT, and are on their way to being addressed.

 

[robmausser]

You are aware that Harris didn't just cancel construction on the Eglinton West subway line. He also had a partially constructed station filled in with concrete so to ensure no future construction on the line could return.

Lol it was not filled in with concrete. That would be absurdly expensive.

There was nothing more than pilings holding back dirt for a hole. That hole was backfilled with dirt.

A bit of work was needed with the Eglinton LRT to remove those pilings. That was it.

Its always funny to see stories play telephone over time.

 

[robmausser]

I think we need to see how far they can get in fixing the issues on Line 6 over the next few months

I'm not satisfied with this. After what can be done over the next couple of months, and if the result is unsatisfactory, then we need a commission to look into what can be done. Because the situation is, that in other countries and even in Canada itself, LRT's run much faster than the Finch LRT. Toronto with blinders again, if it cant be done here, it cant be done at all.

If over the next couple of months the performance of the LRT cannot at least match the bus it replaced, we need an inquiry as to why. If the transit priority wasn't enough, we figure out how it can be improved. If as the TTC claims its Mosaic slowing down the speed of the trains because they dont want the extra maintenance, we sue Mosaic. If it turns out its because the TTC is worried about people stepping onto the tracks, we put up barriers along the side of the LRT tracks. Etc etc.

We don't just stop at 3 months and shrug our shoulders and say "well we tried, I guess LRT's cant be as fast as a bus, even though they are faster almost everywhere else in the world"

 

[Dan416]

I asked ChatGPT for the stop spacing of lines 5, 6 and 10 and the below table is from it:

Line	Approx. Length	Stops	Average Stop Spacing
5 Eglinton	~19 km	25	~500–850 m*
6 Finch West	~10.3 km	18	~600–650 m
10 Hurontario	~18 km	19	~850 m

Based on the stop spacing on Hurontario being significantly wider than lines 5 and 6, shouldn't the overall speed be faster if that is truly what is slowing down line 6?

 

[Bojaxs]

Lol it was not filled in with concrete. That would be absurdly expensive.

There was nothing more than pilings holding back dirt for a hole. That hole was backfilled with dirt.

A bit of work was needed with the Eglinton LRT to remove those pilings. That was it.

Its always funny to see stories play telephone over time.

Well, I'm glad to be proven wrong in this case.

I asked ChatGPT for the stop spacing of lines 5, 6 and 10 and the below table is from it:

Line	Approx. Length	Stops	Average Stop Spacing
5 Eglinton	~19 km	25	~500–850 m*
6 Finch West	~10.3 km	18	~600–650 m
10 Hurontario	~18 km	19	~850 m

Based on the stop spacing on Hurontario being significantly wider than lines 5 and 6, shouldn't the overall speed be faster if that is truly what is slowing down line 6?

We can only hope this will be the case. Hopefully Miway won't impose overbearing safety precautions onto their LRT operations in a similar fashion as the TTC has to their LRT and streetcar operations. Purposely slowing down through intersections, approaching stations/ stops at a slow speed, etc.