Bojaxs
Senior Member
Another slow transit project brought to us by well intentioned, ill informed city councilors & politicians. Or is it more about boosting property values within Mississauga City Centre?
Looking as this diagram, this loop seems entirely pointless. The LRT will be slow as it will be in a constant state of turning. It'll probably be faster to just walk in a straight line from Duke of York. Why not do a straight line to Erindale GO station?
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lastcommodore
Active Member
I am rather split on the idea of a downtown loop, and I'm not even really sure how the serrvice would like. I hope it doesnt have the same lumbering problems that 6 has, especially given the turns.
Feel like money could be better spent on some form of HOT on Burnhamthorpe, but Id like to ask if someone has a good explanation of any loop benefits.
JJTheJetPln
Active Member
I'm trying to think about this logically because I'm not from Mississauga, though I do frequent Square One every now and again.
The issue I have with this isn't just the turning radius or the speed the LRV's would be going, it's just a matter of how they'd plan to do this. Duke of York is a pretty narrow road with two lanes both ways. If they needed to construct a guideway, the bigger question is does the LRT operate in both directions on the loop or one direction? If it operates in one direction, minimal land expropriation from either Square One or Sheridan College/UofT or Both will need to be done. The median would need to be removed, as well as the roundabout.
If they're planning on doing this both ways, I'm concerned about everything after Thames Gate when you hit Celebration Square. You'd either lose all of Duke of York to a guideway, or you'd expropriate enough land to shift lanes to keep vehicle traffic moving, or you'd have a Streetcar type deal where the LRV shares the road with traffic which would make it significantly worse.
I'd need to see more about the expectations of the loop in order to comment on it, but I'm trying to understand how the loop would effectively work in this instance.
ShonTron
Moderator
If they’re building a loop, it makes more sense to extend it one block west to Confederation. That gets you closer to more residents and also forces a decision on how to deal with through service.
Going via the street named for Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor (seriously!) doesn’t really add much coverage and just adds time to through riders.
Going via the street named for Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor (seriously!) doesn’t really add much coverage and just adds time to through riders.
reinventingthewheel
Active Member
I’ve always thought the entire MCC loop should be elevated, over the median of Confed+Burnamthorpe and the shoulder of Rathburn+Hurontario.
If the LRT travels at grade through a loop (stretched to Confederation) it will face 12+ signals traveling straight and need special turn phases through 4 signals, all in just shy of 4km.
The whole area is already so plagued by traffic. It will continue to get worse for every tower built (with massive parking provisions and no semblance of quality rapid transit). The surface LRT alignment may fit in the ROW but it will introduce many new restrictions and signal phases that will drive this area to pure gridlock!
If the LRT travels at grade through a loop (stretched to Confederation) it will face 12+ signals traveling straight and need special turn phases through 4 signals, all in just shy of 4km.
The whole area is already so plagued by traffic. It will continue to get worse for every tower built (with massive parking provisions and no semblance of quality rapid transit). The surface LRT alignment may fit in the ROW but it will introduce many new restrictions and signal phases that will drive this area to pure gridlock!
drum118
Superstar
To be very bunt, the loop is a joke and have oppose it since day one and still do for a number of reasons. Moving the line from Duke of York to Confederation is the right choice as it will service Parkside Village that is still 10-15 years from completion as well M City that maybe 10-15 years from completion depending on the market. Then you have the large development where the YMCA is current is that moving to Square One Mall West end that is under construction.
Any idea of an elevate ;line in DOA as the elevated section is already ramp to Rathburn.
The biggest mistake for CCTT that it was built in the wrong location as the city wasn't willing to pay the price for the land where it should be just like they did for the The Paramount Fine Foods Centre, formerly the Hershey Centre. A new CCTT/GO Station is to be built across the street underground and hope it is design to handle 150,000 riders daily when open in 2030's,
If the LRT stay on City Centre and then shifted to Hurontario at Square One Drive to Hurontario, that block plaza would house the new CCTT with with 2 levels of service bay below ground with one being for the Transitway and future connection by X. You would have 2-3 levels above ground to service everyone. You could have put development on top of the new terminal which is not been plan for.
The loop is a city thing since they fail to understand transit in the first place and thinks the city revolves around the city core when it not the case in the first place.
The loop will add extra travelling time for riders who have no need to go to CCTT in the first place as well keep people using the car to the Cooksville or Port Credit GO Stions just like the old route 19 did. On a good day, the 19 added 15 minutes going to/from CCTT with the the 103 saving 14 minutes bypassing CCTT. The LRT will do the same thing. When 19 was cancel due to poor service north of CCTT, route 2 handle the south end like it did before 2000 that used to run every 6 minutes with the 19 doing Port Credit-CCTT-Brampton every 18 minutes. Today, the 17 does the north end only to Hwy 407 about every 20+ minutes and the 2 about 8-14 minutes making the in/out of CCTT about a 25 minutes.
Eglinton has been Mississauga Uptown area since 2012 with 5 huge developments on the books for close to 50,000 residential units with more to come.
It has been stated since 2019 that that the LRT service was to be every 8 minute with the possibility of the line split in two like today with each section having either the same headway or two different headway. If the line is split in two, most of those new residents for the Eglinton Uptown area will drive to the GO stations as it will be faster than using the LRT. MiWay is supposed to have a parallel bus service to deal with the stops between the LRT Station with an unknown headway and no idea if it will stay 100% on Hurontario at all times. A few years ago, Metrolinx and Mobilinx stated that there is a possibility of having service that will bypass CCTT and the loop but with the current mess it could be DOA.
Very little work is taking place this winter compared to pass winter since its more colder with way more snow. Various projects with an April timeframe before the winter will most likely be miss from weeks to months that 2029 opening will be the new 2028 and that is subject to the loop.
It has been stated that those who live in Parkside Village and M City that Route 28 would be faster to get to/from Cooksville Go Station or Dundas than use the LRT.
The walking time from the Rathbun station to Sq One is equal to the same time if the LRT station was on City Centre
Having talked with a number of transit planners in the US as well in Europe, it has said the current layout is wrong for Hurontario with or without a loop. If the line stay on Hurontario like it should in the first place, you could have a separate interlining loop service or a loop only service. Single seat rides are expensive.
Metrolinx has yet to appear before any council like they were to in November so far to give an update on the line, let alone the loop. With Ford making the rehashed comment on the loop from January 2024, maybe something will take place in the next month or two for council presentation. The loop needs to have the EA updated for the extension and that is an six month process follow by design work and a tender process before construction can take place since Mobilinx is out of the picture to do the work. Rebuilding the Burnhamthorpe intersection is a six months project with major traffic and transit issues for Hurontario and shifting single lane of traffic on Burnhamthorpe.
Any idea of an elevate ;line in DOA as the elevated section is already ramp to Rathburn.
The biggest mistake for CCTT that it was built in the wrong location as the city wasn't willing to pay the price for the land where it should be just like they did for the The Paramount Fine Foods Centre, formerly the Hershey Centre. A new CCTT/GO Station is to be built across the street underground and hope it is design to handle 150,000 riders daily when open in 2030's,
If the LRT stay on City Centre and then shifted to Hurontario at Square One Drive to Hurontario, that block plaza would house the new CCTT with with 2 levels of service bay below ground with one being for the Transitway and future connection by X. You would have 2-3 levels above ground to service everyone. You could have put development on top of the new terminal which is not been plan for.
The loop is a city thing since they fail to understand transit in the first place and thinks the city revolves around the city core when it not the case in the first place.
The loop will add extra travelling time for riders who have no need to go to CCTT in the first place as well keep people using the car to the Cooksville or Port Credit GO Stions just like the old route 19 did. On a good day, the 19 added 15 minutes going to/from CCTT with the the 103 saving 14 minutes bypassing CCTT. The LRT will do the same thing. When 19 was cancel due to poor service north of CCTT, route 2 handle the south end like it did before 2000 that used to run every 6 minutes with the 19 doing Port Credit-CCTT-Brampton every 18 minutes. Today, the 17 does the north end only to Hwy 407 about every 20+ minutes and the 2 about 8-14 minutes making the in/out of CCTT about a 25 minutes.
Eglinton has been Mississauga Uptown area since 2012 with 5 huge developments on the books for close to 50,000 residential units with more to come.
It has been stated since 2019 that that the LRT service was to be every 8 minute with the possibility of the line split in two like today with each section having either the same headway or two different headway. If the line is split in two, most of those new residents for the Eglinton Uptown area will drive to the GO stations as it will be faster than using the LRT. MiWay is supposed to have a parallel bus service to deal with the stops between the LRT Station with an unknown headway and no idea if it will stay 100% on Hurontario at all times. A few years ago, Metrolinx and Mobilinx stated that there is a possibility of having service that will bypass CCTT and the loop but with the current mess it could be DOA.
Very little work is taking place this winter compared to pass winter since its more colder with way more snow. Various projects with an April timeframe before the winter will most likely be miss from weeks to months that 2029 opening will be the new 2028 and that is subject to the loop.
It has been stated that those who live in Parkside Village and M City that Route 28 would be faster to get to/from Cooksville Go Station or Dundas than use the LRT.
The walking time from the Rathbun station to Sq One is equal to the same time if the LRT station was on City Centre
Having talked with a number of transit planners in the US as well in Europe, it has said the current layout is wrong for Hurontario with or without a loop. If the line stay on Hurontario like it should in the first place, you could have a separate interlining loop service or a loop only service. Single seat rides are expensive.
Metrolinx has yet to appear before any council like they were to in November so far to give an update on the line, let alone the loop. With Ford making the rehashed comment on the loop from January 2024, maybe something will take place in the next month or two for council presentation. The loop needs to have the EA updated for the extension and that is an six month process follow by design work and a tender process before construction can take place since Mobilinx is out of the picture to do the work. Rebuilding the Burnhamthorpe intersection is a six months project with major traffic and transit issues for Hurontario and shifting single lane of traffic on Burnhamthorpe.
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Dan416
Senior Member
I'd be OK with the loop if you didn't have to go through it, i.e. you could go up or down Hurontario without going through the loop.
drum118
Superstar
Yes you will go though the loop one way or another once its in service. That is why there has to be a wye at Burnhamthorpe like there is a wye at the 403 flat area between the bridge and the two elevated sections.
Until the loop was approved for construction in January 2024 as well yesterday, you would have gone north on Hurontario to the elevated wye area to get to Square One Station before going north to Brampton.
Once the loop is in play, you will go north to Burnhamthorpe, then west on it to Confederation to get to the Square One Station before going north to Brampton. There has to be 3-5 stations for the loop.
As I stated, there was talks about some service or every other tram staying 100% on Hurontario and it seems to be DOA at this time, This must be a must need to get people to use the LRT, not their cars.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Will the loop have signal priority? 
afransen
Senior Member
It just seems like a terrible idea, and a poor use of funds. The original sin of MCC is building it on the west side of Sq One and not in the direction of Cooksville, which should have been 'downtown' Mississauga (leaving aside Port Credit). It's inherently an island that is hard to service with regional transit without great expense. It seems to me a less crazy version of the loop is to have a branch of Line 10 go to Erindale.
The whole thing seems like a mistake. It's not clear to me how to unf*ck it.
The whole thing seems like a mistake. It's not clear to me how to unf*ck it.
Sauga89
Active Member
I think any loop line definitely needs to be distinct from the Hurontario line.
Here is roughly where I would put the stations if I was building a grade separated line that wasn't part of the Hurontario line. The stations would be 700 metres apart, with interchanges with the Hurontario line at Rathburn and Burnhamthorpe.
I know there's no money to build this anything like this any time soon, but I think I would prefer dedicated bus lanes in the medium term, rather than building an LRT loop.
Here is roughly where I would put the stations if I was building a grade separated line that wasn't part of the Hurontario line. The stations would be 700 metres apart, with interchanges with the Hurontario line at Rathburn and Burnhamthorpe.
I know there's no money to build this anything like this any time soon, but I think I would prefer dedicated bus lanes in the medium term, rather than building an LRT loop.
doady
Senior Member
No dedicated bus lanes needed anywhere in MCC. Just need to finish the Transitway, including a Hurontario Transitway station to connect with LRT and keep the LRT on Hurontario where it belongs. Too many buses on the road, they need to take them off the road, not build bus lanes.
Grade-separated BRT and on-street LRT is more than enough for Mississauga City Centre.
LRT loop at worst would interfere with the mainline LRT service along Hurontario, but at best it becomes like one of those novelty streetcar or monorail loops that are all the rage in the US. Let's try to focus on actual transit corridors. I already hate loop routes for buses, so to see rail lines laid out that way is just sad. The 26 used to loop around the City Centre too.
Burnhamthorpe Road is one of the worst transit corridors in Mississauga too, not even suitable for BRT, let alone LRT.
Grade-separated BRT and on-street LRT is more than enough for Mississauga City Centre.
LRT loop at worst would interfere with the mainline LRT service along Hurontario, but at best it becomes like one of those novelty streetcar or monorail loops that are all the rage in the US. Let's try to focus on actual transit corridors. I already hate loop routes for buses, so to see rail lines laid out that way is just sad. The 26 used to loop around the City Centre too.
Burnhamthorpe Road is one of the worst transit corridors in Mississauga too, not even suitable for BRT, let alone LRT.
officedweller
Senior Member
From a July 19, 2023 post.