CalgaryTiger
Senior Member
I was sort of joking but if I think about it, we're a chair park people, not a lay on the grass kind of people.
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konradiical
Active Member
What's the issue tho? We have parks, where people go, whether lying in the grass or having family gatherings its kinda up to them lmao. All you can do is provide parks
haltcatchfire
Senior Member
Calgarians prefer to be more active when out than lounging in the grass? More people in other cities have less personal outdoor space so need to use the park for lounging more while most people here have decks and yards? Calgarians prefer to lounge in a raft down the Bow instead? Our season isn't long enough for people to get into the habit?
There's nowhere to park?
There's nowhere to park?
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BigWoofer
New Member
I think you hit the nail on the head with a lot of these. However, I will say that it is very nice to go to a park in Ontario/Quebec and see it full of people enjoying it, out in the sun on the grass. Calgary parks can sometimes feel a bit less welcoming. But at the end of the day, Calgary has so much nature around it that it's hard to complain. And rafting down the Bow is one of the great Calgary outdoor summer activities.Calgarians prefer to be more active when out than lounging in the grass? More people in other cities have less personal outdoor space so need to use the park for lounging more while most people here have decks and yards? Calgarians prefer to lounge in a raft down the Bow instead? Our season isn't long enough for people to get into the habit?
There's nowhere to park?
As an aside, one exception I've noticed is the Elbow River near Lindsay Park, in Mission. In the summer that area consistently has tons of people lounging on the shore, or in the water.
I've noticed this along several parts of the rivers - Stanley Park, Eau Claire, Shouldice, and the Weir all come to mind.
CBBarnett
Senior Member
[Long off-topic planning rant incoming alert]
On the very on-topic subject of whether Calgarians sit on grass in parks at a level that can be described as "something we do or don't do", I think it's a combo of things, but mostly about density, infrastructure and individual perceptions/experience. I think the better question to start with is not why do Calgarians seem to do more/less of something, but why do people do what they do at all. In this case in cities, why do people sit around in grass where they do?
Density
Toronto and Montreal have much higher density over a wide area of the city than Calgary, with fewer small greenspaces and more larger ones. This concentrates activity in two ways - there are simply way more people near Trinity Bellwoods Park in Toronto or Parc La Fontaine in Montreal (more demand for parks) plus fewer green spaces (less supply of parks). It only takes a few thousand extra daily users in a park to change the vibe from being pretty empty to "wow there's a lot of people here".
Compare the population, density (people / hectare) and amount of greenspace/empty space between these 3 pictures - Prince's Island Park, Trinity Bellwoods and Parc La Fontaine. Population is within 3km radii:
So not only is Toronto and Montreal 2x denser over the wider area, they are both 5 to 10 times denser in the immediate area (e.g. within a few blocks) That's tens of thousands of more possible park users for any activity, including grass-sitting. For perspective, the densest areas of Hillhurst/Sunnyside would still be well below the average block in urban areas of Montreal and Toronto.... and Kensington is splitting is relatively tiny population between two quality large parks, with Riley Park and Prince's Island both just a few minutes away, let alone many other smaller ones all over. The river pathway system needs to be acknowledge here too - much of the "sitting in parks" market is absorbed by the similar category called "sitting along the river". Calgary exceeds Toronto and Montreal in this category as our rivers are far more accessible and better for relaxing.
The other factor related to density is the build form. Calgary's lower density means more and larger backyards. More people have private greenspace, even within these inner city areas near quality parks. Of course, this doesn't mean people won't go to their local park sometimes, but it does mean those quality parks have yet more competition, further diluting people. Some people will sit in this backyard rather than walk to the park. This reduces the demand on parks - potentially making the number of grass-sitters even less than they otherwise be.
Built form plays a role in other ways too - air conditioning. Ontario and Quebec have higher amount of air conditioning and generally hotter summers than Calgary, but in the inner city with 150-year old building stock, with more rentals, there's actually many older buildings that don't have it. This pushes people outside for comfort and health reasons for much of the summer - nearby parks are a useful tool to provide cooling. Calgary's climate and newer average buildings don't push people outside as much - that may be changing with increasingly warm summer nights, and increasingly hot summer days.
Infrastructure
In the parks themselves, how they are designed are really important to allow for grass-sitting. As mentioned in another post - Calgary often lacks quality grass in many parks. A huge reason for this is the sheer number of green spaces we have and the level of maintenance we can support. The result is almost every community has "forgotten parks" which are basic rough turf, maybe some trees or a playground, but woefully outdated and hardly used (because density is low and there's several other similar green spaces nearby splitting demand). It very much is a quantity v. quality thing for Calgary - a limited budget for parks means many green spaces are informal dog parks and nothing else.
Infrastructure also undermines access to parks more in Calgary than in Toronto and Montreal. Calgary's car-orientation is the problem here - where even relatively minor streets like 10th Street near Riley Park are big barriers to crossing, reducing incentive to walk over the local park. Combined with natural barriers and escarpments, Calgary's access issues mean that each quality park's nearby population is further reduced. Compared to the streets that surround Trinity Bellwoods and Parc La Fontaine, Calgary put barriers everywhere that separate density from amenities even ones right across the road. All this dis-incentivizes using parks, reducing the number of grass-sitters, resulting in a perception that there's fewer here.
Individual Perception
The whole hypothesis of this discussion is a bit faulty because of one fact, which contradicts everything I just said - lots of Calgarians sit on grass in parks, just like other cities. We might not do it in as big of numbers, or in greater proportions but thousands of people still do it all the time in the hot summer days. Perhaps it's just recall bias between what we see when we visit (go to popular lively parks in dense urban areas) v. what we do when we live in our own cities. Suburban and lower density Calgary, Toronto and Montreal all have similar lack of grass-sitting going on.
Concluding thoughts.
Great Toronto/Montreal-style grass-sitting opportunities:
I think the mistake people make when comparing city-v-city cultural differences is that we assume culture is some external, uncontrollable variable; where it's entirely interlinked with decisions about infrastructure and density. If we want more people to sit on the grass in parks just add the necessary pre-requisites to make that happen and it will.
On the very on-topic subject of whether Calgarians sit on grass in parks at a level that can be described as "something we do or don't do", I think it's a combo of things, but mostly about density, infrastructure and individual perceptions/experience. I think the better question to start with is not why do Calgarians seem to do more/less of something, but why do people do what they do at all. In this case in cities, why do people sit around in grass where they do?
Density
Toronto and Montreal have much higher density over a wide area of the city than Calgary, with fewer small greenspaces and more larger ones. This concentrates activity in two ways - there are simply way more people near Trinity Bellwoods Park in Toronto or Parc La Fontaine in Montreal (more demand for parks) plus fewer green spaces (less supply of parks). It only takes a few thousand extra daily users in a park to change the vibe from being pretty empty to "wow there's a lot of people here".
Compare the population, density (people / hectare) and amount of greenspace/empty space between these 3 pictures - Prince's Island Park, Trinity Bellwoods and Parc La Fontaine. Population is within 3km radii:
So not only is Toronto and Montreal 2x denser over the wider area, they are both 5 to 10 times denser in the immediate area (e.g. within a few blocks) That's tens of thousands of more possible park users for any activity, including grass-sitting. For perspective, the densest areas of Hillhurst/Sunnyside would still be well below the average block in urban areas of Montreal and Toronto.... and Kensington is splitting is relatively tiny population between two quality large parks, with Riley Park and Prince's Island both just a few minutes away, let alone many other smaller ones all over. The river pathway system needs to be acknowledge here too - much of the "sitting in parks" market is absorbed by the similar category called "sitting along the river". Calgary exceeds Toronto and Montreal in this category as our rivers are far more accessible and better for relaxing.
The other factor related to density is the build form. Calgary's lower density means more and larger backyards. More people have private greenspace, even within these inner city areas near quality parks. Of course, this doesn't mean people won't go to their local park sometimes, but it does mean those quality parks have yet more competition, further diluting people. Some people will sit in this backyard rather than walk to the park. This reduces the demand on parks - potentially making the number of grass-sitters even less than they otherwise be.
Built form plays a role in other ways too - air conditioning. Ontario and Quebec have higher amount of air conditioning and generally hotter summers than Calgary, but in the inner city with 150-year old building stock, with more rentals, there's actually many older buildings that don't have it. This pushes people outside for comfort and health reasons for much of the summer - nearby parks are a useful tool to provide cooling. Calgary's climate and newer average buildings don't push people outside as much - that may be changing with increasingly warm summer nights, and increasingly hot summer days.
Infrastructure
In the parks themselves, how they are designed are really important to allow for grass-sitting. As mentioned in another post - Calgary often lacks quality grass in many parks. A huge reason for this is the sheer number of green spaces we have and the level of maintenance we can support. The result is almost every community has "forgotten parks" which are basic rough turf, maybe some trees or a playground, but woefully outdated and hardly used (because density is low and there's several other similar green spaces nearby splitting demand). It very much is a quantity v. quality thing for Calgary - a limited budget for parks means many green spaces are informal dog parks and nothing else.
Infrastructure also undermines access to parks more in Calgary than in Toronto and Montreal. Calgary's car-orientation is the problem here - where even relatively minor streets like 10th Street near Riley Park are big barriers to crossing, reducing incentive to walk over the local park. Combined with natural barriers and escarpments, Calgary's access issues mean that each quality park's nearby population is further reduced. Compared to the streets that surround Trinity Bellwoods and Parc La Fontaine, Calgary put barriers everywhere that separate density from amenities even ones right across the road. All this dis-incentivizes using parks, reducing the number of grass-sitters, resulting in a perception that there's fewer here.
Individual Perception
The whole hypothesis of this discussion is a bit faulty because of one fact, which contradicts everything I just said - lots of Calgarians sit on grass in parks, just like other cities. We might not do it in as big of numbers, or in greater proportions but thousands of people still do it all the time in the hot summer days. Perhaps it's just recall bias between what we see when we visit (go to popular lively parks in dense urban areas) v. what we do when we live in our own cities. Suburban and lower density Calgary, Toronto and Montreal all have similar lack of grass-sitting going on.
Concluding thoughts.
Great Toronto/Montreal-style grass-sitting opportunities:
- Buckmaster Park/Bankview CA site, Bankview - visit here on those really hot summer nights, I assure you it's just as busy as Toronto (on a smaller scale) as many rentals don't have air conditioning.
- Cliff Bungalow School Park, Cliff Bungalow
- Tomkins Park Beltline
- Beaulieu Gardens, Beltline
- Barb Scott Park, Beltline
- Central Memorial Park, Beltline
- Riley Park, Hillhurst
- Prince's Island, Eau Claire
- Murdoch Park, Bridgeland
I think the mistake people make when comparing city-v-city cultural differences is that we assume culture is some external, uncontrollable variable; where it's entirely interlinked with decisions about infrastructure and density. If we want more people to sit on the grass in parks just add the necessary pre-requisites to make that happen and it will.
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CalgaryTiger
Senior Member
I, for one, am inspired to do some grass sitting this summer. Maybe a forum meetup idea, I think we can even openly drink in some parks?
Buckmaster is a gem. And you're totally right, people do sit in this park (or is it a series of parks?)
BigWoofer
New Member
Great analysis, and I agree with much of what you wrote. I wonder if another element is a sort of bandwagon effect - perhaps when fewer people are sitting on the grass in the park, people don't want to be the odd one out who is doing it?
Tothewest
Active Member
Would not discount our ease of access to nature (hiking, skiing, road biking, mountain biking, ect...)...that people in most urban centers can only dream about. Not necessarily sitting and relaxing to your point...but I feel lots of calgarians are maybe less inclined to sit in a park as their connection to the outdoors, when MANY enjoy the hobbies I listed regularly
If you are in DT TO or MTL, the thought of venturing outside the city for ANY activity feels daunting and void of the allure the rockies provide us
Joborule
Active Member
As said, it's a combination of both. As more density come nearby inner city parks, more people will lounge in the spaces. But one of the best features of Calgary is the abundance of nearby outdoor destinations and activities that's both within the city, and not a long drive away. So there's a strong appeal to go be active at those places during the pleasant summer months.
Let's see how much people are lounging in those parks when Calgary is approaching 3 million, and the greater downtown region pop is ~250K.
Tothewest
Active Member
Very true...however CGY can really only grow North, east, and SE....so our access to the west should never be overly restricted
trtcttc
Senior Member
We do have great parks to hangout in Calgary as you pointed above. And I think the fact people do not in as many numbers as Toronto/Montreal is probably a good thing. Moving from Toronto to Calgary, the outdoor culture here is greater not less, and if instead of siting in parks people are going hiking, biking, running, walking, that's actually a positive. Parks with lots of people like Central Park gets romanticized in shows and movies as an amazing city amenity, which it is, but I don't think it's necessarily people choosing to sit in parks instead of going to the mountains or a national/provincial park but that those parks are too far/hard to get to/no car/etc. than a preference.
Cowtown
Senior Member
There’s something to be said about urban parks you’d find in Toronto or Montreal, or say parks like Central Park, Bryant Park et al.
There’s also something to be said for places like Fish Creek, Nose Hill, Harvey Passage, Douglas Fir Trail, Bowmont Park, and all those kind of places too. It’s awesome to be able to experience various types of natural settings within a short drive or bike ride within a city. Very few larger, older cities have easy access to this kind of thing.
There’s also something to be said for places like Fish Creek, Nose Hill, Harvey Passage, Douglas Fir Trail, Bowmont Park, and all those kind of places too. It’s awesome to be able to experience various types of natural settings within a short drive or bike ride within a city. Very few larger, older cities have easy access to this kind of thing.
Albertasaurus
Senior Member
One thing that sets most of Calgary's parks and open spaces apart from older cities is that they tend to be more naturalized, as opposed to the more manicured parks you'd find in Toronto, Montreal or Ottawa, or even smaller places like Halifax or Quebec. Calgary is a bit unique in that it really feels like a fusion of urbanism and nature at times, with huge parks like Nose Hill and Fish Creek feeling like you're in wilderness and even Prince's Island feeling like a bit of an oasis of nature just beyond the towers. We do have a few nice manicured parks like Central Memorial, but when I think of open space in Calgary I tend to think of more naturalized areas.