[samsonyuen]

Is Yonge and Sheppard shaping up to be more of a second downtown than Yonge and Eglinton is? What I consider to be downtown: urban dwellings (condos, etc.), employment centre, retail/entertainment hub, transportation node.

I live near midtown, and sometimes work by Yonge and Finch, passing by Yonge and Sheppard, and am somewhat impressed by what seems like real urbanity shaping up. Granted, I'm not often out walking around Sheppard like I am Eglinton...

Residential:
Eglinton: a couple of tall buildings near the intersection, a few mid-rise close by
Sheppard: a cluster/row of tall condo buildings lining "North York Centre".

Employment:
Eglinton: Not very many offices
Sheppard: Lots of HQ and smaller employment centres

Entertainment:
Eglinton: Shopping is like a second-rate mall + a few big box stores and independent stores/restaurants. Cinema and big supermarket.
Sheppard: Shopping is equivalent. More restaurants (chains) and more diverse (Korean, Chinese, etc.). Also a cinema and big supermarket.

Transportation:
Eglinton: On Yonge subway
Sheppard: Transfer between Yonge subway and Sheppard subway, close to Hwy 401

Anyone else think this or am I totally out of line here?

Also, which has more potential? I would think Sheppard has more redevelop-ability, no?

And, any other quasi-second downtowns that look ready to spring up? Someone said in a Dufferin Mall thread that it could also become a western downtown. That'd be interesting, as it make Toronto less N/S focused.

 

[Mustapha]

Also worth a mention are the 'downtowns' at Yonge and St Clair and Yonge and Steeles. They've all developed in their own way over time and have their own attractions, benefits and drawbacks.

The Yonge and Eg area lost quite a few office workers when Union Carbide left their building at Eglinton and Redpath.

 

[androiduk]

Good thread samsonyuen, I've been thinking about the development of Yonge/Sheppard lately. It's coming along quite nicely and looks great from Yonge & Yonge Blvd. A great variety of architecture and burgeoning street life. I find it interesting how it has developed architecturally. When new buildings go up in downtown Toronto, I wonder how much they are influenced by the surrounding buildings, especially the ones that were built by 'starchitects'. In North York, as far as I know, there are no starchitect built structures and everyone seems to go in and put up what ever the hell they want, almost like they're building in a vacuum. It makes for an interesting architectural landscape. I can't honestly see Yonge & Eg ever competing with Yonge & Sheppard.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

I guess the wildcard here is what happens transit-wise to both nodes: will YE have two subway lines like Sheppard does now? Will Sheppard (either as a subway or LRT) be extended west and if so, will that have an effect? Will an Eglinton subway lead to more development? Time will tell.

 

[Observer Walt]

It is indeed a good question to toss out for discussion. I think Y & Sheppard has more potential to keep developing. The area has been deliberately intended as a downtown, especially as Mel Lastman decided to build the "ring roads" (Beecroft Road and Doris Avenue) to get traffic off Yonge and make it less of a freeway. Yonge and Eglinton is an important node, but I wouldn't call it a "downtown", especially as there is little sign of employment increasing.

As for Dufferin Mall, it's been reno'd and looks nicer, and the nearby neighbourhood is on the upswing. But it's a long long way from being considered in the same breath as any downtown-style district. It's a mall, that's all, plunked down in an older district of mostly single family houses.

 

[gmania]

Living in the Yonge and Eglinton area and having worked for a long time in the Yonge and Sheppard area, I gotta disagree about entertainment/shopping.

Yonge and Eglinton is far superior in shopping and nightlife than Yonge and Sheppard. You walk up Yonge from Eglinton to Blythwood Road and the variety of retail, bars, restaurants is unmatched in the Yonge and Sheppard area. Plus, you have shops and restaurants along Eglinton East and Mt. Pleasant has great shopping within easy walking distance.

 

[Chuck]

Yonge and Eglinton wins for sure. Creating an urban feel isn't as simple as making a list and checking off as many things as you can; just because there are offices, condos, transportation, and population density at Sheppard doesn't make it equal to Yonge and Eglinton. What matters more is how these things interact, and how people react to them.

Despite being somewhat similar to each other, there's a vibe at Eglinton that you just don't get a Sheppard. Eglinton is much more of a focal point within the context of the GTA than Sheppard, and the surrounding 75 year old neighbourhoods give Yonge and Eg an urban feel rather than a suburban one. Both areas will grow similarly over the next few decades, but only Eglinton will feel urban.

 

[taal]

I'll chip in and for some background info I'm currently living in NYCC right off Yonge and have been doing so for 12+ years.

Without a shadow of a doubt (unless you're into karaoke) Eglinton has WAY more to do in terms of entertainment. I'll take it a step farther ... Eglinton has way more in terms of interesting shopping. Eglinton also feels a lot more like downtown for a couple of reasons:

1) The side streets, actually have a bit of retail and a lot of people.
2) Although I've made many arguments trying to convince people that out of all the suburbs NYCC is the most successful in terms people density I wasn't comparing it to Eglinton. Eglinton feels a more dense throughout the year also everything is closer. Some may argue NYCC has more shopping in terms of quantity (but I hope no one will attempt to make such an argument with quality as Eglinton is a lot better) I'd argue even this is not true as you really need to count the area all the way South of Lawernce and east/west on Eglinton (Bayview, Mount Ple....)

In terms of potential NYCC has Eglinton beat by a long shot. Yes there is some land left at the old TTC bus bay and redevelopment NYCC still has way more opportunity.

A couple of other things. I bet soon enough NYCC will actually be more dense in terms of people due the the shear # of buildings. But density really doesn't equate to much as other suburbs have shown. Take MCC for one - I'd actually like to see a density comparison between it and NYCC and eglinton - they might all be very similar but still the amount of people and shopping clearly varies by a long shot.

I do love the NYCC area but have some big problems:
North of NYCC to Finch it's very dominated by Koreans/Chinese + Persians. Very little in the way of multiculturalism. South of NYCC station it improves but the # of interesting restaurants is small. So I'd argue that NYCC has more restaurants overall but a lot less verity. In terms of people I think they both have problems - NYCC is dominated by the obvious and Eglinton tends to be more white but I find Eglinton is a little more diverse.

In terms of transportation it really depends where your trying to go : - )
But I'd say NYCC has Eglinton beat. It has amazing access to areas North of Toronto through VIVA / YRT - has excellent east west TTC transportation ... obviously the subway and GO! Downtown is really only 10min farther then from Eglinton.

So if I had to pick right now Eglinton hands down. 10 Years from now ... I still think it'll be the same. 20 ... who knows.

 

[lordmandeep]

there are also a lot expensive residential going up around York mills as well.

 

[wyliepoon]

North of NYCC to Finch it's very dominated by Koreans/Chinese + Persians. Very little in the way of multiculturalism.

Isn't domination by "Koreans/Chinese + Persians" a lot of multiculturalism? I actually think that is a plus for NYCC. I'd actually like to see NYCC turn into a something like Seoul or Taipei or Hong Kong- an Asian-themed high-rise community with Asian-style street life.

 

[Therion]

Isn't domination by "Koreans/Chinese + Persians" a lot of multiculturalism? I actually think that is a plus for NYCC. I'd actually like to see NYCC turn into a something like Seoul or Taipei or Hong Kong- an Asian-themed high-rise community with Asian-style street life.

I wouldn't. I'd rather not have my neighbourhood become another Richmond Hill, where they pretend they don't speak English if you go into a restaurant.

Having lived at NYCC for about a year now, I have to agree with the posters who think that Eglington has more to offer. It has more of an old-town feel to it. However, NYCC is improving rapidly as they put up more and more condos, and better quality shops and restaurants find a customer base. There's already tons of mid-range restaurants, and we're never at a loss as to where to go eat on Friday night.

 

[Long Island Mike]

This to me discerns Midtown and Uptown-to some degree....

Everyone: Yonge and Eglinton could to me be Midtown Toronto while Yonge and Sheppard and for that matter North York Centre would be Uptown Toronto.
An opinion from Long Island Mike

 

[wyliepoon]

I wouldn't. I'd rather not have my neighbourhood become another Richmond Hill, where they pretend they don't speak English if you go into a restaurant.

The language is a whole other issue (which really isn't much of an issue since most Asian places, except for the worst greasy spoons, have staff that speak English). However, NYCC would make a nice pedestrian-friendly alternative to Richmond Hill.

Yonge and Eglinton could to me be Midtown Toronto while Yonge and Sheppard and for that matter North York Centre would be Uptown Toronto.

We've already established that. I guess the discussion here is which one has the greater potential to become Toronto's 2nd CBD (which is probably a better description than "2nd Downtown").

 

[MisterF]

Employment:
Eglinton: Not very many offices
Sheppard: Lots of HQ and smaller employment centres

Actually employment is almost identical in both neighbourhoods, 34,000 at NYCC and 32,200 at Eglinton. NYCC is growing faster though. It passed Eglinton for total employment last year, but it's worth noting that it has a much larger land area.

 

[Whoaccio]

I don't know how to best express this, but one problem I have with both Y/Eg & NYCC is that they sometimes seem out of place with their surroundings. For instance, you can walk one block from North York Center and it looks like any other suburb. Y/Eg is a bit better, with high density development spread out further from the main intersection. Even then, garden variety low density development is pretty close to the core. One thing I think makes Downtown feel like "downtown" is that there is a large area of high-medium density ddevelopment around the main core. It would be nice to rezone the areas around Y/Eg & NYCC as midrise neighborhoods.