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D

drum118

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The commissioners approved the request that $6 million be put into the budget and ask the Government for help on the funds for the following EA's

1. $2 million for the expansion of the Sheppard subway. (This will see the current approved line to STC being move to Sheppard only and to run east to Markham Rd. It should run to Morningside. Nice piece of land on the south-west corner for a bus terminal. It would be a good time to Sheppard extended to Downsview to the west.

I agree that the approve STC alignment should be move to Sheppard as I could never see it in the first place. The line should be extended to Pickering Town Centre/GO Station at a future date as well to the airport if it gets built. This will allow people to leave their car in Pickering and take the subway to the west that will be faster than sitting in the gridlock on the 401.

2. $4 million for the expansion of the BD in the east. (This means the SRT is dead and a new Kennedy station will be built to replace the current SRT/Subway/Bus station with a more direct route to Markham Rd and Sheppard Ave by STC. Also, there is the need to look at building the extension up Markham Rd to Highway 7 now as this extension will see more riders than the Vaughan/York extension will from day one.

We will see what is plan on April 24 at the presentation.

Dave
 
1. $2 million for the expansion of the Sheppard subway. (This will see the current approved line to STC being move to Sheppard only and to run east to Markham Rd. It should run to Morningside. Nice piece of land on the south-west corner for a bus terminal. It would be a good time to Sheppard extended to Downsview to the west.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but this isn't suggesting that Sheppard would no longer terminate at STC is it?
 
^Sounds like it, and it makes sense to go to Sheppard and Markham too. Good news. Why is it so much more for an EA for B-D than Sheppard East? How much was the York U EA?
 
I don't think the Pickering Airport would need a subway. By 2032, the projection is that the airport will handle 11.9 million passengers a year - which works out to an average of 33,000 a day of people through the terminal. Spread that out across the day and figure on how many of those people are actually going to get on a train to head somewhere, and the numbers are really, really low.
 
"This will see the current approved line to STC being move to Sheppard only and to run east to Markham Rd. It should run to Morningside."

Not a good idea at all in my opinion...a subway extended to the edge of Malvern might have even less potential than a subway out to the Vaughan sinkhole. Rouge Park vs sinkhole...which is worse? I'd be furious if my bus stopped running to STC since the B/D line is up to 50% faster than the Sheppard line when you're going downtown for many Scarborough residents. If I was forced onto the Sheppard line every day, I'd stop taking the TTC and so would many others.

"It would be a good time to Sheppard extended to Downsview to the west."

They should have built that segment along with the original Yonge-Don Mills stretch. Not only would it get people out of their cars, it'll lure people onto the Spadina line, relieving both the Yonge line and the B/D line.

"The line should be extended to Pickering Town Centre/GO Station at a future date as well to the airport if it gets built. This will allow people to leave their car in Pickering and take the subway to the west that will be faster than sitting in the gridlock on the 401."

I'm sorry, but do you really think people will get off the 401 in Pickering and sit on the subway for twice as long as it would take to drive even with traffic? Pickering to Yonge & Sheppard or Yonge & Bloor by subway would probably both be over an hour. Toronto does not need this. I doubt people would even get off the 401 at Morningside to switch to the subway. The 401 isn't that bad east of Yonge...the traffic is much worse to the west.

"This means the SRT is dead and a new Kennedy station will be built to replace the current SRT/Subway/Bus station with a more direct route to Markham Rd and Sheppard Ave by STC. Also, there is the need to look at building the extension up Markham Rd to Highway 7 now as this extension will see more riders than the Vaughan/York extension will from day one."

Depending on which alignment they take to STC, Kennedy station may not need to be replaced. If they take it east along Eglinton, to Danforth, and up McCowan, it'll work just fine as is. Running a subway up Markham Road is just plain silly - as far as I'm concerned, the only legitimate options for northerly extensions are going up McCowan to Markville or going to Malvern Town Centre. There's nothing along Markham except big box stores and industrial parks.
 
"It would be a good time to Sheppard extended to Downsview to the west."

As the TTC says, that might be good for network connectivity, but *nothing else*. It's little detached bungalows the whole way! It would be an exercise in insanity to spend hundreds and hundreds of millions to build there.

I also hope that Kennedy doesn't get rebuilt to send the BD up the hydro corridor. Running it northeast to STC could allow some already-built nodes to be connected, provide a better transit spine for Scarborough, and encourage appropriate intensification along already-growing avenues.

The lesson of Spadina is that running a subway through a trench is bad; the lesson of Sheppard is that running a subway through the suburbs is worse. A BD extension through arterial Scarborough might just get it right.
 
"As the TTC says, that might be good for network connectivity, but *nothing else*. It's little detached bungalows the whole way! It would be an exercise in insanity to spend hundreds and hundreds of millions to build there."

Willowdale was bungalows before the subway came. Sheppard is already starting to be Avenue-ized. Bathurst between Sheppard and Steeles is lined with at least 60 high-rises. By having it cross Yonge, you'll draw many more people onto the line.

"I also hope that Kennedy doesn't get rebuilt to send the BD up the hydro corridor. Running it northeast to STC could allow some already-built nodes to be connected, provide a better transit spine for Scarborough, and encourage appropriate intensification along already-growing avenues."

If it goes through the hydro corridor, it'll still end up in STC, if you were thinking otherwise. The only question is where it will hit Lawrence between the hydro corridor and McCowan.
 
Network connectivity is important, and pretty much every subway system in the world attempts to build a network, rather than a system of lines radiating from downtown. That's the only way that real urban development can happen in the suburbs.

A subway extension to Malvern seems crazy to me. There are just so many areas in the city with far higher potential. Leaving aside lines to serve downtown, an extension of Yonge further north, or Bloor-Danforth further west would have far more success. Malvern is mostly low- and medium-density housing, with scattered warehouses. There are many high-density nodes along Yonge and toward Mississauga. Also, beyond the end of the B-D line lie close to a million Mississaugans. Beyond Malvern one can find Rouge Park and the Pickering Airport (farm)lands. A Weston or Eglinton line would also be far more useful.

Recall that this isn't just one subway to Malvern, but two. This would be, theoretically, a capacity of about 68,000 people per hour, per direction. The entire ward has fewer residents than that.

This whole thing makes no sense to me. Why is the TTC musing on subways to the most remote low-density neighbourhood in the city with virtually no feeder bus routes, when the best they can offer for downtown routes that are already busy enough to merit a subway is a couple streetcars on a private right-of-way.
 
This whole thing makes no sense to me. Why is the TTC musing on subways to the most remote low-density neighbourhood in the city with virtually no feeder bus routes, when the best they can offer for downtown routes that are already busy enough to merit a subway is a couple streetcars on a private right-of-way.

Im with you on this one. I would go into why I think a subway to Malvern is a foolish idea but I think it is pretty self evident.

Overall I tend to scratch my head more than anything at how the TTC expands and where it seems to place subways. Sometimes it makes sense (replacing STC with a subway line is rather logical). In other cases, its dumbfounding.

The only reason I have come up with that might work is approaching subway expansion much in the way suburbs drool over new highways and interchanges. By putting in place high density transit perhaps the goal is to make these areas more desireable for high density development and help turn more parts of the city into areas where people are likely to move. But aside from a stimulus for residential development, I cant see any reason for such focus on subways in Scarborough.

I would be curious to hear anybody speak up if they can offer some really strong reasons as too why it makes sense and why the TTC is doing the right thing by investing billions on high density transit in low density areas when there seem to be far more logical ideas and solutions out there.
 
Six million for an EA is not billions. No harm in planning for the time when the subway may go to Malvern and/or Markham. Smarter to have the Sheppard/Bloor-Danforth connection along with the future extensions figured out today so they don't have to redo things in 30 years when those lines are possibly extended. At least that's what I'm getting from this.
 
"I would be curious to hear anybody speak up if they can offer some really strong reasons as too why it makes sense and why the TTC is doing the right thing by investing billions on high density transit in low density areas when there seem to be far more logical ideas and solutions out there."

No one will speak up because extending two subway lines to Malvern is a monumentally stupid idea and everyone knows that. Some might say Scarborough is "underprivileged" and perhaps "underserved" by transit. If so, then what the hell is Rexdale?
 
No harm in planning for the time.....

True. And 6 million for a study isnt that much money. Perhaps had the wording been 'high priority transit corridor' instead of 'subway' I wouldnt even have given the issue a second thought.

Still, I do question a lot of the TTC's recent plans for transit expansion given they dont quite fit the usual logic taken when it comes to these matters. As I have said, perhaps there is some brilliant reasoning behind these and some of the more recent projects that will only be seen or understood in years to come.

Right now expansion is expansion and I would support most of the proposals being made, even if they were something as ridiculous as a subway to Malvern. I just hope this 'odd' style of planning is little more than a phase and comes to an end soon though.
 
I wouldn't blame the TTC for recent plans. The politicians that fund transit are to blame for the Spadina line, SRT, Sheppard and the VCC extensions. I'm sure the city would have looked different if the TTC had final say for the last 35 years.
 
Six million for an EA is not billions. No harm in planning for the time when the subway may go to Malvern and/or Markham. Smarter to have the Sheppard/Bloor-Danforth connection along with the future extensions figured out today so they don't have to redo things in 30 years when those lines are possibly extended. At least that's what I'm getting from this.

That's a perfectly reasonable point, but these EAs clearly indicate the next priorities for subway construction. There's nothing wrong with a report examining possible future extensions, including one to Malvern, but I can't fathom why EAs on two subway limes up to Malvern is being done before countless other routes in the city. Recall that an EA is useless if construction isn't started almost immediately after its completion.

No one will speak up because extending two subway lines to Malvern is a monumentally stupid idea and everyone knows that. Some might say Scarborough is "underprivileged" and perhaps "underserved" by transit. If so, then what the hell is Rexdale?

I can hardly say it better than an actual resident of Northeast Scarborough...

I wouldn't blame the TTC for recent plans. The politicians that fund transit are to blame for the Spadina line, SRT, Sheppard and the VCC extensions. I'm sure the city would have looked different if the TTC had final say for the last 35 years.

I completely agree about the VCC extension and the technology used for the SRT, but Spadina and Sheppard were TTC projects from the start. Recall that Sheppard had been the TTC's number one subway priority since the Network 2011 days.
 
I wouldn't blame the TTC for recent plans. The politicians that fund transit are to blame for the Spadina line, SRT, Sheppard and the VCC extensions. I'm sure the city would have looked different if the TTC had final say for the last 35 years.

Im certainly not laying all the blame solely on the TTC. Queens Park is a topic unto itself and one that is equally, if not more frustrating.

But as you said, the TTC has dealt with this climate for 35 years, or there abouts. 35 years ago the visions were largely about subways, and today, the same. Perhaps the province has been the deciding factor in where the subways have gone, but when the only two proposals anymore seem to be subways or streetcars in a right of way, that is where I believe the TTC has failed. The ideas the put forward are rather tired, and in the case of subway lines in largely suburban areas, just dont make any sense at all.

Yes the TTC will always have to deal with politics to a certain degree. But they might find it easier to gain public support (the public being the ones who can also put pressure on their local politicians from all levels of government) if they actually made proposals that made sense and stuck by those reccomendations. And perhaps Im of a minority who think this, but, subways, in most cases, dont make a lot of sense in Toronto, especially once you leave the old City of Toronto. I fail to see why the TTC cant be a little more creative and realistic and put forward more reasonable, sensible and logical projects instead of always playing the subway card and putting itself into a position where it has to beg for billions and fall into the trap of being tossed around until enough politicians deem it in there best interest to support one of their projects.
 

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