[ssiguy2]

Electrification of the GO network, at least as planed with catenary, is essentially dead. Metrolinx has even taken down it's electrification goals with it's GO Expansion site. At this point even they know it's now a non-starter and this new small electric goal of something by 2032 is basically for public consumption.

I was racked over the coals endlessly for even mentioning alternatives like battery trains at the GO Electrification thread so this is a thread to discuss what ML/GO could do to get to it's zero/very low emissions targets. From battery to hydrogen to electric with diesel or hydrogen backup to third rail or anything else we can think of. Perhaps the best way forward to decrease emissions is just go smaller DMU trains or battery/diesel locos? Or perhaps the best thing is to simply continue with the current fleet and make the best of it?

With GO catenary at LEAST a decade away even for a small section, what is the best way forward? Now, with catenary thrown out the window, it's a conversation that Torontonians must have and ALL options should be on the table. What do you think is the best way forward?

 

[just east of the creek]

ok. I'll bite. If catenary is a decade or more away (and we do not have legacy systems to build on, so I can see the timeline being much longer) then what are the most realistic alternative systems that will provide the long term reliability and robustness in operations that would be feasible for a GO network and climate?

 

[ssiguy2]

For myself, I don't think hydrogen is a good idea. It's technology is still young and the infrastructure is not in place. I see it's potential exploding for long distance travel and freight where catenary and/or batteries are simply not optional but even if it becomes more affordable/available, I still don't think it's a good idea for urban/suburban rail.

For myself, I think batteries are the only way to go. The technology is advancing at a record pace and it has proven itself reliable and affordable while being vastly quicker to implement. Most BEMU trains can run at least 120 km catenary-free and most have top speeds of around 140km/hr. The 120 km distance is battery only and if a few stations have recharging, then they can effectively run all day. Even the stations no longer require catenary for recharging as it can be done along the station tracks without contact. It is even faster and cheaper to implement and could be done in a matter of days.

DART {Dublin} has just started to receive it's first installment of 32 trains, Slovenia & Czech have put in new orders for BEMU quite literally in the last month. They are already running on several lines in Germany, France, and Japan. Even the new Shinkansen trains now have batteries that will allow the trains to run 70km catenary free. BEMUs now also run in Italy, Slovenia, China, while the Netherlands are currently testing them.

 

[ARG1]

Electrification of the GO network, at least as planed with catenary, is essentially dead. Metrolinx has even taken down it's electrification goals with it's GO Expansion site. At this point even they know it's now a non-starter and this new small electric goal of something by 2032 is basically for public consumption.

Its not, the end.

 

[afransen]

With Metrolinx inability to execute, I am coming around to the idea of battery electric locos or perhaps BEMUs (compatible with eventual catenary electrification) with station opportunity charging, which ss ssi points out, does not need to be catenary based to avoid freight conflicts. Eventually we will get our act together and deploy catenary, and at that time the battery equipment can be redeployed to other missions on the edge of the network.

 

[ssiguy2]

Its not, the end.

When ML takes down it's own electrification site, I think it's fair to say it's a non-starter. It MAY come someday but having even a single line open within a decade is being very optimistic. ML has shown it has absolutely no trepidations about lying to the public so I fall to see why they would stop now.

 

[ssiguy2]

With Metrolinx inability to execute, I am coming around to the idea of battery electric locos or perhaps BEMUs (compatible with eventual catenary electrification) with station opportunity charging, which ss ssi points out, does not need to be catenary based to avoid freight conflicts. Eventually we will get our act together and deploy catenary, and at that time the battery equipment can be redeployed to other missions on the edge of the network.

Very true although by the way battery technology is advancing, the catenary system conversion may not even be necessary.

The great thing about battery is that isn't a new technology or a gadget technology. They have been around for 150 years but only in the last 15 years has the technology advanced enough to be practical, much like EVs. It has the added benefit of not being unique supplier. The 5 largest train manufacturers have all introduced battery trains including Alstom, Siemens, Skoda, Hitachi, and CCRW.

 

[ARG1]

When ML takes down it's own electrification site, I think it's fair to say it's a non-starter. It MAY come someday but having even a single line open within a decade is being very optimistic. ML has shown it has absolutely no trepidations about lying to the public so I fall to see why they would stop now.

Jedwin Mok (@jedwin.bsky.social)

Also spoken about publicly for the first time yesterday: MX has been cornered into a “better” solution. EMUs running fully electric on the lakeshores using the new south platforms at Union (where there is no trainshed). Then hybrid BEMUs for discontinuous electrification on...

web.archive.org

This is the latest information the public has from Metrolinx regarding their electrification plans dated to 2 months ago.

There is also this internal image that was leaked a few months ago as well that depicts what Metrolinx believes to be the worst case scenerio of electrification within the next decade, that is assuming that the governments cuts off any and all funding from the project, and they can only work with what they have.

Its important to note that all of this material was made and presented after it was pretty much clear that OOI was going to fall apart, and DB was being kicked out - this isn't some fantasy from yesteryear based on a status quo that was shaken up by last month's events.

Suffice it to say, its too early at this stage to write off electrification as something that won't be happening. Any such claims are at this stage done entirely based off gut feeling and subjectivity - not facts. Things could obviously change and GO Expansion gets descoped even further - however that's not what the on the ground reality is today.

 

[ssiguy2]

^^^ The issue is not that they don't have a plan {as little as it is when compared to what they promised for a decade} but rather, do you believe them when they say they will do it? ML has shown that catenary is just too much for them to get their heads around. Is it a good idea for Toronto to wait yet another decade before getting a single electric rail line? For those who don't support batteries as the best alternative to what GO has now, what do you suggest is the best way forward?

Personally I think they should keep the same monster diesel trains they have now but used for express/long-distance routes because their pathetic slow de/acceleration really isn't an issue when they make very few stops over longer distances. They should be kept , at least as long as their lifespan allows but just for commuter rail.

 

[afransen]

It is absolutely bonkers that we are not just ripping out the trainshed. For decabillion dollar infrastructure projects, we need to apply some common sense to the heritage protection status of buildings.

 

[ssiguy2]

There is another alternative to battery trains and that is diesel electric but probably not the type you think. There is system where a VERY small diesel engine {the size of a small car} is part of the train but it isn't connected to any moving parts of the train. It is run exclusively to charge the batteries. When the battery storage runs below 50% {give or take} then the small diesel engine kicks in to recharge it and when combined with regenerative breaking the battery train can effectively run all day.

This has the benefit of being of still providing electric service with the enhanced benefits of fast de/acceleration and smooth and quiet ride associated with EMUs. The best part is that it doesn't require any new infrastructure at at all which is great for a city like Toronto that can't seem to build any. It also has the added benefit of needing fewer batteries on the train more than offsetting the weight of the small engine. Due to the engines being very small and running at very low power, it also requires little maintenance unlike standard diesel DEMUs/Locos.It is very similar to the Nissan E-Power vehicles which are successfully run all over the world except NA. The engine is not connected to any part of the vehicle except the battery system.

There are also similar systems with hydrogen but they require new hydrogen refuelling infrastructure and supply chains which basically gets rid of any cost savings so I don't think they are a viable option. Also clean hydrogen is still significantly more expensive than standard diesel so operationally, there would be little cost savings to hydrogen. In 20 or 30 years maybe but not now.

 

[ssiguy2]

Another very innovative technology under development is using wind turbines to recharge battery trains where the turbines are actually part of the train.

The battery trains recharge themselves by having turbines under/over/the sides of the trains. These are small units so they would basically not be visible. Trains create a lot of drag and displace a lot of air when travelling but it is lost energy. The turbine energy is fed back into the batteries themselves. There is slightly more energy used from the batteries due to increased drag but this is vastly overcompensated by the energy it produces. It has the added benefit of not needing as many batteries as a standard battery train because they are always being recharged so distance limitation are greatly diminished. This also means that the huge weight of the trains due to batteries being so heavy, is reduced.

Essentially, trains create a lot of energy by the wind they produce and this just "recycles" that lost energy. It basically the same concept of regenerative breaking. Breaking creates a lot of energy so why not take advantage of it? Ditto for train turbines.

 

[ownthesky]

Another very innovative technology under development is using wind turbines to recharge battery trains where the turbines are actually part of the train.

The battery trains recharge themselves by having turbines under/over/the sides of the trains. These are small units so they would basically not be visible. Trains create a lot of drag and displace a lot of air when travelling but it is lost energy. The turbine energy is fed back into the batteries themselves. There is slightly more energy used from the batteries due to increased drag but this is vastly overcompensated by the energy it produces. It has the added benefit of not needing as many batteries as a standard battery train because they are always being recharged so distance limitation are greatly diminished. This also means that the huge weight of the trains due to batteries being so heavy, is reduced.

Essentially, trains create a lot of energy by the wind they produce and this just "recycles" that lost energy. It basically the same concept of regenerative breaking. Breaking creates a lot of energy so why not take advantage of it? Ditto for train turbines.

Honestly man I was somewhat sympathetic to your posting given that Chicago is literally buying battery multiple units as we speak, but now that you’re posting about perpetual motion machines and steampunk fantasy tech that violates thermodynamics, I’m sorry to say I’ve officially defected to Team Hater.

Is it possible you read something about those dorky marginally effective turbines put at TRACKSIDE and mixed it up with putting turbines ON the trains?

 

[smallspy]

It is absolutely bonkers that we are not just ripping out the trainshed. For decabillion dollar infrastructure projects, we need to apply some common sense to the heritage protection status of buildings.

The existance of the trainshed has no effect on the electrification of the network.

If you're complaining about the locations of the tracks, that has everything to do with the structures underneath them, and not the trainshed itself.

Dan

 

[ssiguy2]

Honestly man I was somewhat sympathetic to your posting given that Chicago is literally buying battery multiple units as we speak, but now that you’re posting about perpetual motion machines and steampunk fantasy tech that violates thermodynamics, I’m sorry to say I’ve officially defected to Team Hater.

Is it possible you read something about those dorky marginally effective turbines put at TRACKSIDE and mixed it up with putting turbines ON the trains?

These are NOT some form of turbine found at the side of a house stuck all over the train and I completely agree with you, that would be absolutely ridiculous. Rather they are basically just piece of thin metal pipes under the width of the train with groves in them {like the gripping part of a screwdriver} or a flat piece of metal {like the tip of a flat head screwdriver} and that's it. Just enough to catch the energy of the wind funneling underneath the train and then taking that power and sending it to the batteries. Also, I never said these were some form of new perpetual motion machines but rather they would simply be a way to extend the battery trains range.

I am NOT saying this is a great idea and , in fact, none of the ideas I have put forward maybe practical. That is the whole point of this thread.........to discuss alternative forms of train technology and there is no such thing as "one size fits all" which includes catenary. Seeing ML cannot manage to put a pole in the ground in a decade, there is no reason to believe they will be able to do it within the next 7 years and that assumes they have any real intention of doing it in the first place as ML has proved time and again, they have absolutely no trepidations about lying to the public. If Toronto wants electrified rail with all the benefits that come with it then they better start looking at alternatives to catenary or they are going to be waiting a VERY long time.