Palma
Senior Member
I am assuming you are asking for hydro, water, gas, Our house is 1250 sq ft, these fees are $285.00 /mth = 22.8/sq ft. I dont care what anyone says, condo fees are too high. Many condos the fee do not include hydro or gas..
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- Thread starter Pinchy
- Start date
DSC
Superstar
It is actually quite hard to compare house costs and condo costs because it a condo you are paying for ongoing 'operations' (and services like a pool, concierge etc) PLUS you are putting money into your condo Reserve Fund to cover 'major repair and replacement' for the next 30 years. I doubt many homeowners are as disciplined and in my condo the contributions to the Reserve Fund are about 40% of the total monthly fee.
junior43
Active Member
It extremely hard to make an apples to apples comparison. Also, some condos may include gas and/or hydro etc. Palma's calculation would also need to factor in things like replacing shingles every 20-25 years, same with windows and furnace/Ac every 20-40years - plus yearly maintenance on those items. then it gets even murkier with window cleaning, gutter cleaning, lawn mowing and snow removal. If you do it yourself in a house, it can be free, but you do have to pay for it in a condo.
I used to be totally against condos and their fees, but I've come around to thinking that they are usually comparable (slightly more for the concierge, etc.). also, condo boards can govern a lot of this. Bad condo board may drive unexpected jumps in fees, etc. but very good condo boards seem to have it covered very well.
I used to be totally against condos and their fees, but I've come around to thinking that they are usually comparable (slightly more for the concierge, etc.). also, condo boards can govern a lot of this. Bad condo board may drive unexpected jumps in fees, etc. but very good condo boards seem to have it covered very well.
highpark
New Member
Also, if you bought a new building... that expected maintenance fee is the first years operating cost.
-Elevators need a drop test now every 5 years thats not in the initial budget.
- smoke alarm replacement .. not in the budget
- yearly fire testing- not in the first years budget
- Office supplies and mailing costs... not in the budget
- proper reserve fund study.. the initial contribution is not representative of whats required... not in the budget.
I could probably spend and hour adding in common costs not included in the purposed first years budget which advertised maintenance fees are based on but *1.5 is a good starting point by year two.
-Elevators need a drop test now every 5 years thats not in the initial budget.
- smoke alarm replacement .. not in the budget
- yearly fire testing- not in the first years budget
- Office supplies and mailing costs... not in the budget
- proper reserve fund study.. the initial contribution is not representative of whats required... not in the budget.
I could probably spend and hour adding in common costs not included in the purposed first years budget which advertised maintenance fees are based on but *1.5 is a good starting point by year two.
DSC
Superstar
Quite an interesting discussion of the pros and cons of house ownership vs condo ownership.
http://www.lashcondolaw.com/downsizing-to-a-condominium/
http://www.lashcondolaw.com/downsizing-to-a-condominium/
detroitbootybass
Active Member
^^^^^
Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any 'discussion' about condos vs homes.
All I see is a pro-condo site (a law firm that only deals in condo law) espousing the virtues of a condo vis-à-vis a home.
A business, 100% dependent on condo ownership for its survival, promoting condos isn't 'interesting'.
Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any 'discussion' about condos vs homes.
All I see is a pro-condo site (a law firm that only deals in condo law) espousing the virtues of a condo vis-à-vis a home.
A business, 100% dependent on condo ownership for its survival, promoting condos isn't 'interesting'.
Ex-Montreal Girl
Active Member
It's already been stated but it's virtually impossible to make comparisons.
Maintenance fees are a function of many things: age of the building, size of the building and its land, number of units to share the common costs, size of the units, amenities, etc. It's pretty difficult to find two same-age buildings in Toronto with an equal number of units of similar size as well as the same amenities. For example, a building with more land than another has more landscaping costs. What about driveways and snow removal? Some building entrances are right on the street. Some have elaborate driveways where taxis and such might pull up.
Also, some boards are more into aesthetics than others while other boards are so hesitant to raise fees they cut corners or ignore repairs and maintenance.
I know that, when we bought into our building in 2012, we calculated that our maintenance fees (which include heat, hydro, cable and water tax) were about $100/month more than the cost of running the house, major repairs and maintenance on the house not included. For that $100, we got a gym, an indoor pool, sauna, party room, library and meeting room, 24/7 concierges and security to accept packages (hate going to the post office to pick up online purchases, for example), snow removal, landscaping, indoor visitor parking etc.
Nobody forced us to buy here. We could have opted for a building with fewer amenities and therefore lower fees but we wanted as hassle-free a lifestyle as possible. For us, that $100 was worth it. I highly doubt that the gap has widened significantly given rising hydro costs just to name one item.
Maintenance fees are a function of many things: age of the building, size of the building and its land, number of units to share the common costs, size of the units, amenities, etc. It's pretty difficult to find two same-age buildings in Toronto with an equal number of units of similar size as well as the same amenities. For example, a building with more land than another has more landscaping costs. What about driveways and snow removal? Some building entrances are right on the street. Some have elaborate driveways where taxis and such might pull up.
Also, some boards are more into aesthetics than others while other boards are so hesitant to raise fees they cut corners or ignore repairs and maintenance.
I know that, when we bought into our building in 2012, we calculated that our maintenance fees (which include heat, hydro, cable and water tax) were about $100/month more than the cost of running the house, major repairs and maintenance on the house not included. For that $100, we got a gym, an indoor pool, sauna, party room, library and meeting room, 24/7 concierges and security to accept packages (hate going to the post office to pick up online purchases, for example), snow removal, landscaping, indoor visitor parking etc.
Nobody forced us to buy here. We could have opted for a building with fewer amenities and therefore lower fees but we wanted as hassle-free a lifestyle as possible. For us, that $100 was worth it. I highly doubt that the gap has widened significantly given rising hydro costs just to name one item.
uto123
Active Member
That sounds like a really well-run condo board! Looking to buy my first condo and I hope the my board is responsible and well-run.
Good to know! That explains why for many condos that I look at, there is a jump in maintenance fees during the first couple years.
cc46
Active Member
This subject comes up with family nearly every year over the holidays. Nearly all of them are home owners and we were as well for 12 years. But now we are condo owners for 8 years.
Anyway on the house side, we bought a brand new house. Expenses included.
-- fencing, flowers, shrubs, replacing a lawn when it died, maintenance equipment to maintain the yard, a patio, patio furniture, a garden shed
-- repairing the furnace in year 7, replacing an eaves-trough and a downspout and a broken window
--exterior painting and window caulking
--repairing a basement wall leak in year 10
Our family members who have a pools, spend $800-1000 a year on pool maintenance and have had capital expenses to build pool houses in addition to the garden sheds.
Now consider your carrying costs to maintain the extra space you need for the storage of the equipment you need to maintain your exterior. Half a garage is usually needed for this.
House living has a lifestyle cost too. Namely a second car, a larger garage, and requires commuting time.
In 12 years I drove 40-45k kms per year, and my wife about 15-20k kms. Urban condo living is one car, and now we drive 20k kms/yr. That's considerable savings. YMMV, depending on your situation.
Oh and btw, when we sold, the house inspector found a roof leak. It was used as leverage to get us down $3000 on the sell price. The roof was 13 years old and by then 50% of the houses on our street had their roofs replaced, all for $2500 to $3500 per house.
Weigh everything out for your situation. My condo fees are 55 cents now in year 8.
Hope this helps.
Anyway on the house side, we bought a brand new house. Expenses included.
-- fencing, flowers, shrubs, replacing a lawn when it died, maintenance equipment to maintain the yard, a patio, patio furniture, a garden shed
-- repairing the furnace in year 7, replacing an eaves-trough and a downspout and a broken window
--exterior painting and window caulking
--repairing a basement wall leak in year 10
Our family members who have a pools, spend $800-1000 a year on pool maintenance and have had capital expenses to build pool houses in addition to the garden sheds.
Now consider your carrying costs to maintain the extra space you need for the storage of the equipment you need to maintain your exterior. Half a garage is usually needed for this.
House living has a lifestyle cost too. Namely a second car, a larger garage, and requires commuting time.
In 12 years I drove 40-45k kms per year, and my wife about 15-20k kms. Urban condo living is one car, and now we drive 20k kms/yr. That's considerable savings. YMMV, depending on your situation.
Oh and btw, when we sold, the house inspector found a roof leak. It was used as leverage to get us down $3000 on the sell price. The roof was 13 years old and by then 50% of the houses on our street had their roofs replaced, all for $2500 to $3500 per house.
Weigh everything out for your situation. My condo fees are 55 cents now in year 8.
Hope this helps.
Tuscani01
Senior Member
Good point adding driving costs. My insurance decreased significantly when I moved to the city, and I now fill up my tank once every 2 weeks instead of once every 3 days.
The savings from that alone nearly cover condo fees.
lead82
Senior Member
As a condo board member, the main drivers of condo fees are utilities, reserve fund costs and security fees. We recently sub-metered our hydro and never looked back. Each unit now controls their own hydro costs. The corporation still pays hydro for the common elements. We reduced our fees by 9% to compensate for the hydro not being included. Those will who conserve energy save money, those that waste it pay more. Since then our building has run surpluses as the utilities have not gone up much in cost. Our building is now in a second year of 0% increase. It's a large tower with 300 units that is 13 years old. The board tries to run it as best as we can. We don't skimp on repairs and have done repairs as recommended by engineers. The main repairs lately have been around plumbing issues as pipes begin to break down and cause ion hole leaks and floods. There were also elvator mechanical upgrades done and fire system upgrades are being phased in.
The building has never had a special assessment and we have a healthy reserve of over $1.5M and we always follow the mandated contributions to the reserve fund.
Right now our fees are about 63c/sqft with hydro being another 7c/sqft. It is middle range.
Just as a ballpark, our building spends our operating funds on:
-25% utilities
-10% concierge/security
-5% for a full time Manager and property management firm
-20% reserve contributions
-10% for cleaning / super
-20% for repairs / upkeep maintenance
-10% other
Some people say amenities drive up costs but it's really the concierge and human labour that do. We have a pool, gym billiard and party room, they require minimum upkeep. These are not large costs. Staff account for 25% of all costs. So just staff and utilities eats up 50% of the budget. Another big down side since 2008 is that the reserve investments provide almost no growth. Condos are now allowed to buy stocks and GIC returns are sub 2%, which doesn't even cover inflation of labour and construction material costs. This is driving large increases to the reserve.
In a home, smart owners can invest money in the market and save for a rainy day, in condos it is very hard to do as we are stuck with very conservatives GICs or government bonds which pay even less.
The building has never had a special assessment and we have a healthy reserve of over $1.5M and we always follow the mandated contributions to the reserve fund.
Right now our fees are about 63c/sqft with hydro being another 7c/sqft. It is middle range.
Just as a ballpark, our building spends our operating funds on:
-25% utilities
-10% concierge/security
-5% for a full time Manager and property management firm
-20% reserve contributions
-10% for cleaning / super
-20% for repairs / upkeep maintenance
-10% other
Some people say amenities drive up costs but it's really the concierge and human labour that do. We have a pool, gym billiard and party room, they require minimum upkeep. These are not large costs. Staff account for 25% of all costs. So just staff and utilities eats up 50% of the budget. Another big down side since 2008 is that the reserve investments provide almost no growth. Condos are now allowed to buy stocks and GIC returns are sub 2%, which doesn't even cover inflation of labour and construction material costs. This is driving large increases to the reserve.
In a home, smart owners can invest money in the market and save for a rainy day, in condos it is very hard to do as we are stuck with very conservatives GICs or government bonds which pay even less.
Ex-Montreal Girl
Active Member
The other day we had friends over who are now in a four bedroom house in the 905. Their kids have married and are on their own. Their community, which was made up of young families who all bought in the same subdivision 20 years ago, is splitting up and moving on. They're looking at downsizing options, freehold townhouses and townhouse-condos (although they are all wary of the future implications of having stairs), bunga-lofts in retirement communities further out in the 905 etc. We had a long discussion about maintenance fees versus house costs. Things were not quite comparable as we moved from a Riverdale semi to a centrally-located condo with excellent walk and transit scorers so we did not need two cars ever. Also, you can't compare costs between a 20 year old suburban detached and a 100+ year old downtown semi.
But, at the time we bought, I calculated that the condo was costing $100/mo than the house in regular maintenance and utilities, including things like twice yearly eaves trough and window cleaning and annual termite inspections and insurance but before the unforeseen like roof or furnace repair, cracking foundations, window replacement etc. We believed that the $100 was worth two gym memberships, never having to think about raking and snow removal, pipes freezing and the like while we were away, hauling garbage bins to the curb and ensuring they were there when you came home on a windy day, pouring time, money and energy into the ground for landscaping, and on and on. We also have a pool, a party room, 24/7 concierges to accept packages resulting from my compulsive online shopping, indoor parking, visitor parking also indoors and more.
Our maintenance fees are on the high side -- about 82 cents per sf -- because of our amenities, the size of the units (1200 sf+), the relatively low number of the units (200) and, last but not least, the age of the building (40+ years). We are very well maintained. Heat and hydro are included in our fees -- and it's about 30% of our budget -- because, for technical reasons, sub-metering is not practical.
Not everybody wants or needs all these frills but they were very attractive to two about-to-be-retirees who want to travel and have an easy slide into their senior years. Given how fast our units sell, I'd say that lots of other downsizers agree.
Anyway, our guests, who had never really thought about a downtown condo before, and love walking around the Danforth and finding great dining and entertainment a streetcar or taxi or Uber ride away, have now asked us to keep an eye out for when a rarely-available three bedroom comes up for sale here.
But, at the time we bought, I calculated that the condo was costing $100/mo than the house in regular maintenance and utilities, including things like twice yearly eaves trough and window cleaning and annual termite inspections and insurance but before the unforeseen like roof or furnace repair, cracking foundations, window replacement etc. We believed that the $100 was worth two gym memberships, never having to think about raking and snow removal, pipes freezing and the like while we were away, hauling garbage bins to the curb and ensuring they were there when you came home on a windy day, pouring time, money and energy into the ground for landscaping, and on and on. We also have a pool, a party room, 24/7 concierges to accept packages resulting from my compulsive online shopping, indoor parking, visitor parking also indoors and more.
Our maintenance fees are on the high side -- about 82 cents per sf -- because of our amenities, the size of the units (1200 sf+), the relatively low number of the units (200) and, last but not least, the age of the building (40+ years). We are very well maintained. Heat and hydro are included in our fees -- and it's about 30% of our budget -- because, for technical reasons, sub-metering is not practical.
Not everybody wants or needs all these frills but they were very attractive to two about-to-be-retirees who want to travel and have an easy slide into their senior years. Given how fast our units sell, I'd say that lots of other downsizers agree.
Anyway, our guests, who had never really thought about a downtown condo before, and love walking around the Danforth and finding great dining and entertainment a streetcar or taxi or Uber ride away, have now asked us to keep an eye out for when a rarely-available three bedroom comes up for sale here.
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