[drum118]

I thought there was a thread for this site, but not showing up if so. If so, move this to there.

Imperial Oil is undertaking an EA for the 75 acres that are vacant and have sat that way for over the past 22 years. They had no interest in selling the land due to the decontamination of the land from the oil tank farm and refinery as well being liable for it if they sold it even after 30 years in doing so. Imperial is now interest in developing these lands and it would have a major impact on both Port Credit as well Mississauga.

Over the last 3 days, there has been Community Waterfront Workshops meetings, tours with a design charrette on Sat for both the Port Credit Imperial Oil Lands and the Marina.

At the Sat charrette, the group was broken up into 3 groups to come up with a vision for both sites.

Since there is a team and study underway for One Port St, the focuses was more on the Imperial Site.

There were 3 plans/ideas developed for this site and have to say our small group had the best plan.

Since its going to cost over $150 million dollars to remove the soil, the idea was to look at the worst area and remove it by building a underground parking area for all the cars for the new development as well visitors and an area to store the boat trailers for day boaters. For boat staying for a long time would require the trailer to be store elsewhere. A new boat launch would have to be built.

Parking requirement would be 50% or less for the development since LRT will be at the centre of it and GO Transit within walking distance as well the #14 & #23 bus that goes to the station also.

The idea would now see the LRT cross the mouth of the Port Credit River from the One Port Development, along the south side of the existing street next to the existing park to the centre of the land where it would turn north to Lakeshore for a future expansion to the west. The north leg would be protected for this expansion. A new station would be built on one of the legs at the centre of the lands. The new bridge can have a walkway beside it for cycles and pedestrians.

A new bike/pedestrian bridge would be built south of the RR bridge with room for the future 4th track. This would create a faster and shorter route to the GO Station for the whole area. All 3 groups wanted to see a road bridge here, but I don't support it, as it should be further north and long over due. A few were calling for this new road bridge to be a new road to go west along the side of the corridor and shows how little they know about that area. Can be done, but tear a huge numbers of homes doing so. It should have been done before these homes were first built as this area is land lock with only one east-wast road which is Lakeshore.

This new bike/pedestrian bridge would help to open the under use employment land next to the rail corridor at Mississauga Rd.

The high density would be in the centre area and slope toward Lakeshore and the communities east/west of it and would be an mix use. A X campus would be nice for the north east corner. A green area would run from about Lakeshore to the lake in the centre as well within 500' of the water edge for the full width, as well part of the north west area. This would cut down on the need to remove existing soil with new soil on top of it. This depends on the results of the EA. Various types of sport fields would be in this park area, since this area is lacking them now.

A new marina would go into the deep water area where boats once dock. A new island would be built out from the current point to block the water from the boater. A new step stair that people can set on be built at the west side that allow people to meet the water and this area is where the lake water is very shallow. The current point can be made into a number of thing to an all year round viewing tower for all types of weather.

I have to say our group vision was very bold and will have to wait until the team comes back next year with 3 options for the site based on the impute of everyone over the last 3 days.

We have also recommended that Lakeshore be reduces to 2 lanes of traffic with the other lanes turnover to transit/cycling/pedestrians to cut down on the through traffic not using the QEW in the first place. This would see on street parking remove also. This was echo by other groups to a point, since a trail test was done not to long ago, with next to no issues for it.

One question was asked by the planner if this area would represent a regional park and the answer was yes.

Art work, skating rink, trees, flowers, overnight camp ground and the list goes on as what would be nice for this site.

Lakeshore development would be mix with 4-8 storey buildings set 5m back from the road edge.

Since parking is underground, there would only be pedestrian roads on the surface as a grid system to being the building close together like a lot of streets found in Europe that have no traffic on them today. Copenhagen Denmark is one good example as well Glasgow Scotland that I saw on my trip as front runners.

We also recommended that the eastern break-wall for the marina be fix as a walkway out to the ship and it be made a public art to the point it would be a fishing pier as well as place to sit and watch the skyline and water. Again a small island next to the break-wall from the shore was requested. More posting on it under its thread.

It will be interesting to see what show up next and how those 3 option can be roll into one plan as well getting off the board, this will have a huge impact on the city. Water taxis will be showing up from all over the place as well a few small cruse ships.

 

[Marko]

The Imperial Oil lands should be made into a replacement marina for the one we now have at the base of Elizabeth St (?). The outer areas facing any streets should be residential (with entirely underground parking) with all marina activity in the U shaped middle. There is plenty of room.

Once this is done, turn the existing fed-owned marina into a proper "Navy Pier" type attraction, complete with rides in the summer and skating rink in the winter. The periphery could still serve as an active marina in summer only, with storage moved to the Imperial Oil lands once the development is complete and the dig out extends additional land into the lake - even linked to an island as suggested.

 

[Memph]

This site HUGE! I've been wondering for a while if it would get developed, it's a very good spot with a ton of potential. It's big enough for an entire little pedestrian oriented city. I suspect you might need more than one underground parking area for that reason though, since the site would take close to 10min to walk across, and it might be difficult to get people to walk that far to their car... who knows though, maybe if the built environment is nice enough they will?

Definitely worth extending the LRT to this site if it gets built at a high density, I'm thinking something like Venice, Brooklyn, Paris or Badalona with 2-8 storey buildings. With narrow pedestrian streets and no setbacks, you could have 5,000-10,000 residents and retail all along Lakeshore, plus along a lakeside walkway and 1-2 interior streets.

Nathan Lewis has some pretty good ideas that could be applied here: http://newworldeconomics.com/archives/tradcityarchive.html

 

[Lizthevw]

That would be great news if something comes to fruition. Canadian courts have held oil companies liable even after full disclosure and remediation, so I am very surprised to read this. I will be even more surprised if construction takes place, but such a lovely stretch of the Lake to develop.

 

[Student99]

drum118, your post is not very coherent. I am having trouble making sense of it... perhaps rereading it to yourself, or having someone else edit, would be helpful.

am i to understand that most of what you posted are just your ideas of what could be done here? so none of this is "official" plan?

traffic in this area is terrible, and I don't think it would make sense to add as many residents as you are suggesting. PLUS remove lanes from lakeshore??? no, this would be utter chaos.



wasn't there some sort of plan for a winter theme park for mississauga? maybe that would work well here

 

[Memph]

Here's a little collage showing a few areas of world cities at the same scale as Port Credit to show just how big this site is.

 

[Redroom Studios]

drum118, your post is not very coherent. I am having trouble making sense of it... perhaps rereading it to yourself, or having someone else edit, would be helpful.

it is absolutely coherent. He said he was at a design charrette where the attendees were broken into 3 groups to come up with ideas. He then described his own group's ideas.

 

[drum118]

Having streets like Vienna Austria like this would be great

Then this found in Copenhagen Denmark

Venice

Barcelona

Nice France

I want to see this at the water edge stairs found in Hamburg as elsewhere

 

[Marko]

it is absolutely coherent. He said he was at a design charrette where the attendees were broken into 3 groups to come up with ideas. He then described his own group's ideas.

It's mostly coherent, but can require a reader to read certain things twice as I often have to with his posts. I'm assuming that drum118 posts from a phone or something and autocorrect finishes some of the words for him, as he commonly leaves out an "s" or "ed" at the end of words in all his posts that I have read.

He's very full of information and great pictures, but not always 100% clear upon first read. (no offense intended drum - I really appreciate your contributions here, but always wondered about the odd word edits and assumed it was an autocorrect thing?)

 

[taal]

What about a local project to emulate, East Bayfront !

 

[Memph]

I see you were impressed by your trip to Europe drum. I went to Europe this spring and was very impressed too. I saw Venice, Vienna, Budapest, Prague and Berlin.

I think Prague might have been my favourite. Here are some pictures for inspiration, the last couple have buildings that should be possible to reproduce by modern developers, at least in appearance (ie not super ornamented).

Could be nice to have a permanent (at least during the summer) market like this one in a small square.

Inspiration for a main street?

Neat little courtyard

Another intimate place

I posted more pictures here: http://www.city-data.com/forum/urban-planning/1612746-pictures-europe.html

With the pictures of Vienna, that's a really important street, it's basically an international destination. Hopefully, this site could become a regional destination (as opposed to local), but it certainly won't have nearly as many pedestrians as those Vienna streets. If a street that wide had no people in it, or even just sparsely populated by pedestrians, it would look rather desolate imo, so I would make it narrower, more like my second pic of Prague. Maybe if you have a lot of restaurant patios and a linear park, it could work, but they should be parks that work well together with retail (no soccer fields which would likely often be empty, and might send some soccer balls into shop windows and patios). I'm thinking maybe a flower garden, rows of trees, a playground, maybe a pond/skating rink, fountains, or sculptures. Liszt Ferenc Tér (Franz Liszt Square) in Budapest is a good example of what I'm thinking of, I don't have the picture on this computer, but you can do a google search.

 

[Memph]

Here's a drawing with some of my ideas.

Legend:
Yellow is lowrise, 2-3 storey townhouses and maybe a few lowrise apartments above shops
Orange is short midrise, 4-5 storey apartments and maybe stacked townhouses
Red is taller midrise, around 6-10 storeys
Green is parks and squares
Purple is a school, a new one would be easily be justified if all this gets built
Blue is retail frontages
Black is pedestrians streets and trails without retail
Brown is a street that would be used by vehicles (garbage trucks, emergency vehicles and delivery vans mostly, maybe cars heading to parking garage entrances)

Main guiding principles:
-small blocks, to make the place exciting with lots of streets to explore
-narrow streets, very few should be above 20ft, preferably 10-15ft for streets service townhouses
-no setbacks and continuous streetwalls along most travelled streets and parks.
-Waterfront Trail is preserved
-Parks framed by buildings

-I'm not sure how I would prefer to do thing with the waterfront. I was thinking about having parks that extend inwards from the waterfront, to draw people into the new neighbourhood from the waterfront, and to the waterfront from the neighbourhood. This way, you would also have more park space framed by buildings and you would increase the amount of buildings with views of the park and lake. Maybe the park along the lake could have a boardwalk of sort sort along the shore, next to the marina, with stairs leading up the slope. You could then have a park at the top of the slope with playground, volley ball and basketball courts, garden, maybe a few trees, splash pad, a maybe skate park? I was thinking of a tennis court, but that would require a tall fence, which would ruin the view of the lake. I was thinking of maybe having a narrow street for emergency vehicles, garbage trucks and delivery trucks along the buildings, with a wide sidewalk between it and the other parks and buildings. The buildings fronting the waterfront should have retail, a decent ice cream shop would be nice, I remember looking for one when I biked through Port Credit but only saw Dairy Queen and Baskin Robbins. The waterfront should be a big destination, with the lake, popular waterfront trail, retail and parks. This would also help draw people through the site and along the N-S retail street.

-For the parks extending inwards, I was thinking of protecting the wooded area to the East, the park next to the school could have a soccer field, and then there were a couple ponds/wetlands... Since the site is fenced off, I have no idea what they're like, and whether they can be retained or are too polluted, but I assumed they could be kept, and turned into little ponds that could function as outdoor skating rinks in the winter, and also have the retail street going next to it. Same goes the wooded area (and other wooded areas), I'm not sure if they would have to be removed as part of the remediation and just start over from scratch, or if some of the trees could be retained and taken into account.

-Taller buildings should front the parks, waterfront and Lakeshore Rd, with maybe townhouses along the single family edges in the West and East. Buildings along the retail streets would be a bit taller than on residential side streets, but not too tall, since most of the retail street would be relatively narrow.

-A square at the middle of the stretch along Lakeshore Road, where the LRT stop would be, maybe this is also where the LRT could turn around? In any case, the idea is for it to be a gateway, to make sure people going along Lakeshore notice that this is not just a few midrises along an arterial and check the place out.

-A few little parks scattered throughout the site, with plagrounds, benches, trees, flowers, maybe a couple tennis courts


I basically drew the marina as a placeholder... You said the area around the pier was shallow, so I assumed the deep water area is to the West of the site and put the marina there. I'm not sure how big it should be either.

 

[Torontovibe]

For some reason Toronto is afraid of small, intimate public spaces but I wish we had more of them. I love those narrow retail streets, especially when they are pedestrian shopping areas, with winding streets. We could have included a bit of that in The West Don Lands or Liberty Village but sadly, Toronto just chose more of the same, instead of giving us something different.

 

[taal]

Well Yorkville has it to a certain degree ... and Easy Bayfront as well.

 

[Memph]

My idea is not perfect, even as I was drawing it I was starting to think certain things should be tweaked. Imo the best architecture/urban plans come out of an iterative process, drawing up an idea, and then looking at it, and see if there's anything you don't like, and then draw a new plan taking that into account.

Some of the things I've thought of since starting my little drawing:

This site will require a lot of parking. I expect over 5,000 residents, maybe even 10,000. That would be maybe around 3,000-4,000 units, even with only 1 parking spot per unit (since the local neighbourhood is walkable, and there's GO+LRT), and a few more for visitors (especially with the parks and retail), that's several thousands of parking spots. I'm not sure if it would be reaonable to put all of these into one parking garage, and whether it would serve such a large site effectively. Also, this means that if you have a single parking exit, it would probably get a lot of traffic, and multiple exits would be needed. These multiple exits should not just be at multiple points on Lakeshore either, since you would have issues turning in/out of them, and would likely need lights at each exit (think Eaton Centre garage). I think multiple smaller garages would be needed, each serving different parts of the site. This also makes sense considering that this would be a multi-phase project. You could either have a large exit onto Lakeshore, and some smaller ones onto Mississauga Road and a waterfront street connecting Pine and Mississauga Road, or multiple exits onto a collector for cars that would go through the site (maybe the street(s) in brown), and then exit onto Lakeshore as a larger intersection.

Special vehicles, including emergency vehicles, garbage trucks, delivery vans, moving trucks, construction vehicles, repair vans, etc... should be able to access the site somewhat. They wouldn't have to be able to access every street imo, as long as the whole site is within a reasonable distance of a street that these special vehicles can access. For fire trucks for instance, if you look at Square One, the distance from the middle of the mall to the closest outside wall is pretty significant, so I assume the equipment they have to service large buildings like that could be used to access places on pedestrian streets... like maybe long hoses? I don't know, I'm not an expert on those things. I'm not sure how garbage pick-up and storage would be done either, I haven't live in a large condo development before (highrise or something like 3-5 Everson Dr), so I don't know how they do it either. I assume they have a large dumpster(s), but in this development, would they put that in the underground garage? Or maybe another thing that could be placed along the street I drew in brown (lets call it the service street). In any case, that suggests this whole site would be one condominium association.

The other thing is that if Mississauga is going to have a lot of development with narrow streets (1 Port St, Lakeview potentially could, maybe other intensification projects too), maybe it should buy smaller garbage trucks and emergency vehicles that would work better on narrow streets. These do exist as they are used in Europe and Asia. Mississauga is going to have to buy new vehicles like these anyways, since they don't last forever, and they're probably going to have vehicles reaching retirement before this gets built, so it that happens, they could easily buy smaller ones. Here's a funny competition won by the smaller firetruck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=l13UiID2vBI

Public and private realm... if this whole thing is under once condo association, that could be problematic since they often make pedestrian streets (walkways) private. Ideally, all the walkways here should be public, so I'm not sure how that could be worked out.

Although all buildings be unique, and a medieval style street network like the one I drew could be more interesting, maybe it would be too complicated to built, and square city blocks with medium sized phases is more realistic. So maybe one or two block of townhouses would be one phase, or a couple apartment buildings. The buildings in each phase wouldn't have to be identical, but I guess they could be similar. Or you could have more significantly different midrises within in one phase, but the have similar buildings appear in other phases.

If you have 5-10,000 residents, that amounts to 750-1500 school age children, so a new school would likely be needed. I thought it could be next to a soccer field by the waterfront, but maybe somewhere more to the West could be considered. I would prefer somewhere near the Waterfront than Lakeshore Rd though, since the Waterfront Trail makes for a better walk to school than Lakeshore Rd. Now that I think of it, it should probably be close to a vehicular street. Although kids shouldn't be getting driven or bused here considering they should be within walking distance, you still have field trips with buses, various special needs, and what not. A site on the East would be close to the parking lots by Mississauga Road, but would be a little close Riverside School. A site on the West would better serve neighbourhoods West of the site as well.