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UrbanWarrior

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Surprised we don’t have a thread for this yet. These already have been some of the largest protests in our city’s history. This is being described by some U of C and MRU analysts as a pivotal moment in Calgary history, and indeed Canadian history.

I wasn’t able to make it to the main march through the city on Wednesday which was attended by thousands, though I made it to the rally at Olympic Plaza at the end.

I just got home from today’s vigil at Olympic Plaza and it was stunning. I was almost in tears. Easily 10,000 people showed up. It was enormous.
Photos from both Wednesday’s protest and today’s vigil...


Wednesday June 3, 2020

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SaturdayJune 6, 2020

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This is great. I worry about the movement burning itself out with 3 major marches in a week and about sustainability without organizational infrastructure. Has a lead organization been trying to collect contact information at the very least?

The hard work begins now, and whether it is pivotal or not will be the result of work to keep things going. Somewhat concrete asks to accompany general rhetoric would help. A system of decision making which ensures that the most strident don’t impose decisions and drive out others (what happened to occupy).

Whoever is interested in leading should read about how Occupy failed. And what other strategies organizations like Extinction Rebellion use to stay focused without having centralized command and control.
 
Excellent point about the concrete asks, @darwink. Also, because police departments are local institutions (as opposed to, say the global financial system, which was the target of Occupy), it will be important to formulate and articulate these asks at a local level. This is the opportunity to make progress on carding in Alberta. I would also like to see reforms aimed at decreasing the police budget and reducing the role of police in many situations from mental health emergencies to traffic control. At the same time, the maximalist position of "abolish the police" or "defund the police" is going to run headfirst into the fact that most Canadians have a favourable view of their local police departments (and that holds true among visible minorities as well). Under-policing can also be an issue in minority communities. Certainly as a cyclist and pedestrian, I have long been annoyed at the police for not treating pedestrian and cycling safety as a serious issue. You don't necessarily need an armed officer to ticket reckless drivers, but police departments definitely need to play some role in the "vision zero" strategy. It's unfortunate that some police departments see that role mainly in consisting of ticketing jaywalkers.

Nonetheless, it is inspiring to see so many people in Calgary (and across Alberta) marching in the streets for an important cause.
 
The extreme position is a completely unrealistic one. To think that a city the size of Calgary (or any other size) could function without a police department? What exactly would a smaller department or one with reduced funding accomplish? If there are systemic issues in law enforcement, then more or less funding is not going to solve anything.
 
I see it more as splitting up the police force into more hierarchies, or perhaps silos, and having most of those in those structures being unarmed/minimally armed, being specialists instead of generalists.

I think the best example in Calgary is the DOAP team, which moves intervention for those experiencing addiction and mental health crisis from exclusively police/ems/fire, to a social intervention first. In Alberta, the best example would be the Sheriffs taking on traffic enforcement on provincial highways.
 
Some aspects of the more extreme aspects of the movement such as abolishing or defunding of the police won't get very far, for the reasons mentioned. Issues with various polices forces aside, they are needed. Hopefully that angle of the movement isn't pushed too hard as it'll take away from the movement.
 
Not to take anything away from what black people have experienced, especially in the U.S. but I wonder how the movement will go given it's slogan is black lives matter. As witnessed in social media and even in one of the Urban's pics, many of the protesters don't like the slogan 'all lives matter' but at the end of the day, this is what it comes down to.
I'm of middle eastern descent, and have experienced racism. Admittedly, probably not to the level of most black people, but it happens from time to time. I have friends who are Hispanic and oriental and they've also experienced it too. From my point of view it needs to be more of an anti-racism movement.
 
No one, anywhere, is saying that only black lives matter. The point of “black lives matter” is because they haven’t mattered in the general public eye, and certainly not to police, literally ever. Every decent person knows that all lives matter, and that’s why it doesn’t need to be said. Black Lives Matter shows everyone that no matter the colour of your skin, you care and will fight to ensure that black voices are finally heard

It’s a pretty simple concept but somehow people are lost in the message. That’s sort of a part of white privilege, we don’t see the systemic racism, and often even deny its existence, just because we don’t see it. Yet they experience it every single day in most aspects of life.

The fight isn’t to have police completely eradicated. The fight is to have them disbanded and then reformed in a way that will actually enfranchise all people in the eyes of protective services (instead of “law enforcement”). Defunding the police, as is being done in LA, Chicago, Minneapolis, DC, and New York (so far) is being done to choke the police unions into this reformation. Massive civilian oversight is required, as well as at least monthly diversity and de-escalation training, among many other aspects. As well, any cop who has ever been proven to show a racial bias should be forced to resign from every police force in every country. These aren’t even as radical of demands as the hard liners want, these are fully realistic. They only seem radical because we’ve never taken major action on meaningful issues in the history of modernity (voting rights and Marriage equality were nowhere near as broad sweeping as this).

And all of that is only the very beginning of the dismantling of systemic racism in the western world. Protests are happening in multiple countries on every populated continent now, and governments are noticing.

“Fire is Catching, and if we burn, you burn with us.”
 
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"All lives matter" is like saying to a firefighter "All houses matter" when they are trying to put out a burning house. Do other houses need repairs and renovations? Sure, but there's still only one house literally on fire (in this figurative comparison). There are countless other metaphors to help understand this. It's now up to everyone who doesn't get it to do the work and learn, or ask the proper questions.
 
The extreme position is a completely unrealistic one. To think that a city the size of Calgary (or any other size) could function without a police department? What exactly would a smaller department or one with reduced funding accomplish? If there are systemic issues in law enforcement, then more or less funding is not going to solve anything.

Reduced (or at least reformed) funding would accomplish a few goals, in conjunction with other reforms. Specifically, the militarization of police is a big issues folks point to as deaths-by-police are most significantly correlated with spending on weapons and equipment, not crime rates. Police might need the capability to access this level of extreme force from time to time, but the argument is that extreme force is too widely available, encouraged and misused, resulting in much of the abuse and police violence issues. So regardless on if your police system is full of prejudicial actors or not, the outcomes are far less severe on average because the means to use lethal force in common situations are reduced.

Militarized forces are more likely to resort to violent solutions than a force that prioritizes funding a more social or community focus. Police are first to say they aren't trained for many of the situations they deal with (such as individuals with mental health issues having an episode) so take the money used to apply force and reinvest it right into social, health and community problems. It's the old "ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure argument".

The other issues is police workforce reform, which salaries, pensions and the unique nature of police unions are all needing a major re-look. Allowing officers to be more easily removed and fired due to misconduct (almost impossible in some cities under any situation) helps remove the "bad apples" from the good ones, and allows reforms to happen. Other restrictions unique to police unions is many conduct internal and informal "policing", where problems are dealt with internally to avoid public embarrassment or public outcry for criminal charges for misconduct. An example of this is how Alberta is one of the few jurisdictions in Canada to allow police to resign rather than face discipline, sheltering the wrongdoers and system from further public investigation and reforms. Here's the example. Over the years, if few can be fired or investigated, the police systems continues to turn inward and loses it's incentives to reform or adapt. In bad situations this means they can't adapt to new expectations by the community, in worse ones it's the breeding ground for systemic corruption and abuse.

It's a mis-characterization to suggest that calls to "abolish the police" = no police at all. There are a huge number of ways to reform the police - without resorting to some sort of Mad Max anarchy. Changing the role and set of duties the police have is a huge opportunity to change the outcomes people are justifiably frustrated with. Community policing, such as the Japanese system is worth reading about, where police are setup within all communities to deal with local problems and point of contact, rather than just being the people that shows up with guns and lots of shouting in extreme situations. More on Japan's system here link
 
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If you're criticizing a three word slogan for not being a 5000 word policy white paper, then you're not discussing the issue in good faith. People say that government should "trim the fat" and are not dismissed as body-image absolutists who think every one of thousands of public employees should get invasive liposuction. People say that the government should "cut my taxes" without being dismissed because the government shouldn't individually adjust tax rates for just one person. Somehow, those three word slogans are always understood as a figure of speech standing in for a more detailed policy -- whether it's a good policy or not.

Generally, the police do any number of roles:
  • Maintain the safe operation of the roads by ticketing unsafe vehicles and drivers
  • Investigate crimes, find suspects and pass this information on to prosecutors
  • Recover stolen property and record thefts for insurance purposes
  • Interact with people on the margins of society and help them
  • Resolve minor interpersonal disputes, like noise complaints
  • Stop crimes in progress and arrest dangerous people
  • Keep 'undesirable' people from locations where their presence or behaviour is 'undesirable'
  • Hassle people who are not white
  • Defend other police officers from external investigations or public pressure
It's probably not reasonable to expect one group of people to do all this stuff (and more). Some of it might not even be good for anybody to do (like the last few bullet points). It's impossible to train people to do every single task here equally well - even just the useful ones. A lot of police training and equipment focuses on high stakes violent confrontation, which on one hand makes sense, because it's so high stakes, but on the other hand doesn't, because it's only a very small part of the overall set of tasks. Many of the roles are unrelated to high-stakes violent confrontation, and some of them are even in opposition. Most of these jobs could be better done by people with training in social work, or forensics, or psychology or other specialized skills instead.

Imagine we had a large service of people whose job it was to go around to houses collecting recycling, compost and garbage, as well as to extinguish fires. It makes a lot of sense, because fires can start anywhere, so it's good to have people scattered about the city ready to fight fires at any time, lifting bins and firefighting are both heavy, physical jobs. Part of the mentality of extinguishing fires is that every part of the fire needs to be extinguished; you can't leave it anywhere to hide. That's very important, and it's drilled into the workers. So much so, that they sometimes think they see something behind a fence, and they pull out their axes and chop the fence down to get at the recycling. Sometimes, there's recycling there, and they congratulate themselves, and sometimes there isn't, but fighting fires is a high-stakes job and it's understandable if there are mistakes made in the heat of the moment.

Pretty soon, homeowners would start saying that maybe we shouldn't have these guys out there chopping fences down, and maybe the garbagefire department is causing more problems than it solves. That most of the work could be done by people who have no fire fighting training and drive trucks that don't need water cannons and ladders on them, and maybe a small number of people could be on standby with the dedicated equipment and training for the case when a fire does break out. Now, apartment dwellers who have none of these problems since their dumpsters aren't behind fences would say that it's ridiculous; you can't defund the garbagefire department. It's completely unrealistic to think a city like Calgary could function without a garbagefire department. What if a fire breaks out and the nearest people are only garbage haulers and a fire fighter has to be brought in from some distance? Extreme ideas like this only discredit a reform movement.
 
dang. You said it and won ?? *mic drop, makes a cocktail*
 
Not to take anything away from what black people have experienced, especially in the U.S. but I wonder how the movement will go given it's slogan is black lives matter. As witnessed in social media and even in one of the Urban's pics, many of the protesters don't like the slogan 'all lives matter' but at the end of the day, this is what it comes down to.
I'm of middle eastern descent, and have experienced racism. Admittedly, probably not to the level of most black people, but it happens from time to time. I have friends who are Hispanic and oriental and they've also experienced it too. From my point of view it needs to be more of an anti-racism movement.
That's true, but at the moment, Black lives Matter is the slogan to represent that movement. I do agree, it's not only an issue for black people, so the tag might be better served with something more about racism in general but at the same time the "all lives matter" is too broad and pretty much kills any movement of any kind.
 
I believe that most Indigenous and other people of colour understand that this movement is for them too. Many of the signs at the rallies have been along the lines of “Black + Indigenous Lives Matter” or “Black + Indigenous Lives are Beautiful”. There have also been speeches by indigenous and other non-black people of colour at every rally so far.
 
I agree that the slogan 'all lives matter' isn't the right slogan, but I don't think "black lives matter" or "black+indigenous lives matter" are the best slogans either, if people want this movement to go far. It gives the impression that it's a movement for only black or indigenous people, and if the movement is about getting better treatment and recognition for those groups, the slogan works.I know the answer will be that people should already know that the movement doesn't cover only those people, and yes that's true they should, but 'should' doesn't equal 'is'.

For a more broader movement against racism and to get everyone involved it should be something like 'racism matters' because in the end the issue is racism in general. I went to the vigil myself, and noticed that the vast majority were black or white, but over 30% of the city is made up of 'brown people' like myself. That tells me the movement still needs some tweaking.
 
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