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denfromoakvillemilton

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The front-runner for the leadership of Ontario’s Liberal Party says he would upload responsibility for the Gardiner Expressway and the Don Valley Parkway to the province and introduce half-price TTC and GO Transit fares at off-peak hours.
Steven Del Duca, who served as transportation minister from 2014 to 2018, also said a government led by him would restore a planned doubling of provincial gas tax revenues for municipalities, which was recently cancelled by the Progressive Conservatives.
“The most important thing we can do for commuters ... is to provide urgent relief to both their commutes and their bank accounts as soon as possible,” Del Duca said Wednesday.
Styling himself in contrast to Conservative Premier Doug Ford, the Liberal hopeful said Queen’s Park must work with local communities instead of imposing its will upon them.
“What I’m pushing forward is what we can produce when we’re working in partnership with municipalities,” he said.
Asked why the Liberals did not take over maintenance of the highways and slash TTC fares when they were in office, Del Duca said “we actually achieved a lot,” including the extension of the subway to Vaughan.
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“But the bottom line is progress never stops, progress never ends,” he said.
Under his plan, all transit systems in Ontario could provide a 50 per cent discount for off-peak fares — with peak hours being defined solely as one hour in the morning and one hour in the afternoon on weekdays.
All other times and all weekend and holiday transit would be considered off-peak.
Del Duca said the hope is it would create “more balance in our commuter patterns” and give businesses and employees “more flexibility.”
The financial incentive to commute during off-peak hours should alleviate rush-hour traffic, he said.
“This is all about relief for communities. We can’t ask commuters in this region that are cramming onto streetcars, buses, and trains like sardines to wait another decade for relief.”
Because transit lines are running all day anyway, it would also make them more affordable for seniors and students and “generate revenue for transit systems by attracting net new ridership.”
Along with reinstating the plan to double the municipal share of gas tax revenues that Ford cancelled last month, Del Duca would discuss the upload of “provincially significant” highways with the city of Toronto and the Association of Municipalities of Ontario.
These include the Gardiner Expressway, which was downloaded to the city in 1997 by then Conservative premier Mike Harris, and the Don Valley Parkway in Toronto, Hamilton’s Red Hill Expressway, and the E.C. Row Expressway in Windsor.
The former transportation minister said the province has the fiscal capacity and the expertise to maintain the highways, which “significantly lessen the burden of communities across Ontario.”
A spokesman for Toronto Mayor John Tory welcomed Del Duca’s initiatives.
“The mayor has previously supported the idea of the province helping pay for the DVP and the Gardiner because they are regional highways used by many non-Toronto residents,” said Don Peat, Tory’s executive director of communications and strategic issues management.
“And the mayor has also been clear that the gas tax funding should be restored,” said Peat. “He pointed out again today that the current government promised to continue that funding if elected and has now broken that promise.”
 

crs1026

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^I'm afraid that this self-promoting liar has tainted himself too much for me to take his plan seriously, even if it contrasts totally with Doug Ford's way of doing things.

There is so little reason to believe that anything this guy suggests will happen. The problem with the Liberals is that the things they promise don't come to be, and in spite of that deficits balloon..... where the problem with the Tories is that the things they do are unannounced, nasty, and they have to be challenged constantly.

As far as the transit files go, I would prefer a modest but dependable spend against well stated goals and targets over a larger but largely fanciful spend that leads to deficits and is over-celebrated as it plods forward.

- Paul
 

lenaitch

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Apparently "peak hours" is only two hours per day. Who knew. Also, only the Gardiner west of the Humber to 427 was downloaded to the City; everything east was always municipal.
 

Leo_Chan

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I look forward to the reannouncement of the announcement of announcing this plan in three weeks.
How much does it cost to set up an announcement?

Apparently "peak hours" is only two hours per day. Who knew. Also, only the Gardiner west of the Humber to 427 was downloaded to the City; everything east was always municipal.
Should really be 2hrs in the am peek and 2hrs in the pm peek. But if they really want to get it right, the times and pricing should be variable based on usage and capacity of the system.
 

Northern Light

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On the subject of peak demand, there is a fairly clear peak hour in the AM on the TTC and a clear peak hour in the PM when service and stations are most taxed.

8am-9am, and 5pm-6pm.

Its true that the system and roads are both very busy from 6am-10am and from 3pm-7pm; but there would, in theory, be some value if you could shift some travel outside the peak hour.

That said, I'm not sure I'm supportive in as much as I'm not sure that would create enough difference to matter; and I tend to like simple solutions and intuitive laws and prices as compared with more complex models.

But I am open to the idea if there's convincing data and evidence that supports trying it. One would also have to watch that you don't accidentally shift too much traffic simply moving the entire peak hour.

 

Aylmer

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I'd actually agree with the reduction of off-peak fares. Sort of like variable congestion pricing, it can help to spread out demand to alleviate overcrowding. If I could save 50% on transit by starting work 30-40 minutes later or earlier, then that's a real incentive. Not for everyone (including whatever example you're probably thinking of now), but since overcrowding is a non-linear phenomenon, it only needs to work for a relatively small percentage of people in order for it to make a big difference.

That said, it also depends on the cost. Reducing the cost of a transit ticket doesn't attract significantly more ridership, whereas increasing service does. So if an off-peak fare comes at the expense of service or planned service increases, then I'd be conflicted. Ideally, this kind of measure would be made revenue-neutral-ish by increasing the peak fare (say 3.25 to 4.25) to pay for the decreased farebox revenue from the off-peak drop (e.g. 3.25 to 2.25). But as long as this measure doesn't come at the expense of service improvements, then I'm all for it.
 

nfitz

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Would Liberals even support Del Duca? I don't think we are going to have to worry too much about whatever his plan is.

2 hours seems fine for AM peak on transit ... there's not that much before 7:30 AM, and even after 9 AM it's pretty quiet. PM peak is more of a problem.

But the peak demand is AM - if they could move a lot of those AM trips to start after 9 AM, then that really helps.
 

mjl08

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I used to be in favour of lower off-peak fares, but I suspect it disproportionately hurts lower income workers who have strict, "punch in the clock" hours in the retail, manufacturing and hospitality sectors.
 

steveintoronto

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^I'm afraid that this self-promoting liar has tainted himself too much for me to take his plan seriously, even if it contrasts totally with Doug Ford's way of doing things.
I can't be bothered reading anything where his picture is posted. I thought they shot and hung Il Duce, but this must be the 'ghost of'. The Libs had better start running someone other than the Duce...but then again, no...run him, and between him and Ford, and tepid Horwath (who has been good in Opposition) it makes it much more fertile for Schreiner and the Greens.
Should really be 2hrs in the am peek and 2hrs in the pm peek.
I have an excellent measure of 'Rush Hour'...it's when dogs and bicycles are banned from the system. That's got to work two ways. I get a discount when travelling off-peak since I'm banned from travelling on-peak. It's one or the other.
Leashed pets or pets secured in an enclosed container are welcome to travel on theTTC during weekends and weekday off-peak periods - that is before 6:30 a.m.; 10 a.m. to 3:30 pm; after 7 p.m.
TTC Service Information

Dogs Travelling on GO | Travelling with Us | GO Transit

https://www.gotransit.com/en/travelling-with-us/dogs-travelling-on-go

A maximum of two leashed dogs can travel with you when you board on weekdays between 9:30 a.m. and 3:30 p.m. and from 6:30 p.m. until the end of service, and all day on weekends and holidays. [/quote]
On the subject of peak demand, there is a fairly clear peak hour in the AM on the TTC and a clear peak hour in the PM when service and stations are most taxed.
On the subject of peak demand, there is a fairly clear peak hour in the AM on the TTC and a clear peak hour in the PM when service and stations are most taxed.

8am-9am, and 5pm-6pm.
I used to be in favour of lower off-peak fares, but I suspect it disproportionately hurts lower income workers who have strict, "punch in the clock" hours in the retail, manufacturing and hospitality sectors.
You're absolutely right! I was thinking about that earlier today, but there's a *litany* of things that are disproportionately against the poor. Parking tickets, etc, cost of gas, etc, school supplies, etc...

Flip this over for a moment, and realize that *the vast majority of major cities* have off-peak fares. It's for a reason, and it works in terms of making the system work far better. Example:
Using pay as you go
  • Peak fares - Monday to Friday (not on public holidays) between 06:30 and 09:30, and between 16:00 and 19:00.
  • Off-peak fares - at all other times and if you travel from a station outside Zone 1 to a station in Zone 1 between 16:00 and 19:00, Monday to Friday.
Tube and rail fares - Transport for London
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares

TTC did a study three years back that mentions exactly that and more. I posted it in the (Presto?) string. TTC was touting the idea "once Presto is up and working". ...{...the sound of crickets chirping...}
Peak pricing on the GO system. GO Transit operates a distance-based faresystem, achieving more than 80% recovery of operating costs. ... Lower off-peakfares can attract more new riders than the higher peak fares would deter.
Revenues: Smart Pricing and Charging for Parking | Neptis Foundation
Far Beyond Rush Hour: The Incredible Rise of Off-Peak Public ...

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2014/02/...peak-public-transportation/8311/

Feb 6, 2014 - (Lower-income people use off-peak transit at much higher rates than wealthy ... Best of all, the benefits of full-day service create a cycle that perpetuates more ... That's true even in places without great transit systems — Detroit ...
Toronto take note: discounted off-peak fares a real option | Consumer ...

https://cpi.probeinternational.org/.../toronto-take-note-discounted-off-peak-fares-a-rea...

Jan 30, 2015 - The off-peak pass can be used at any time other than peak travel ... First, riders get the immediate benefit of lower fares if they change their ... a costly overbuild of the entire transit system in order to solve a few, ... Consumer Policy Institute argued in a report last year that off-peak pricing – even offering free ...
Should Fares Be Higher During Peak Hours? — Human Transit

https://humantransit.org/2010/05/should-fares-be-higher-during-peak-hours.html

May 6, 2010 - People who have the option of travelling off-peak should be ... Again, though, the cost in system complexity — “how long does it take to explain this? ... is greatest in peak hours, so the benefitof getting people onto transit at ...
[PDF]Transit Costs During Peak and Off-Peak Hours - Transportation ...

onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/trr/1977/625/625-006.pdf

Although much of the system revenue is collected during the ... off-peak pricing of urban transitservice. .... for overtime) because the fringe benefits for overtime.
[...]...etc...
- : Google



 

steveintoronto

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Would he also be paying for the Gardiner East replacement too then (assuming it becomes part of the QEW)?
I address this post separately, because it's a distinct point, and you're right on it. Come what may with subway upload from Ford, and whatever may happen when Ford goes to the wreckers after, but whatever's good for the transit goose has to be good for the highway gander too.

Transit users are paying a premium, so should drivers. Think of all the tax that will save! (Before anyone quotes me on that, I'm being facetious)

It's well past time that drivers started paying their share.
 

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