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wild goose chase

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I have read that the two main languages spoken by Chinese immigrants in North America are Cantonese and Mandarin, and that originally Cantonese was the most common for many generations (including those that started many Chinatowns on this continent) but nowadays in most cities in North America, Mandarin is more common. I have heard that Mandarin, being the standard language in China, is the Chinese language taught when people learn Chinese at schools and universities internationally.

Some sources say that Cantonese and Mandarin are both considered dialects of one Chinese language while I hear that linguistics considers them far apart enough to be separate languages -- in the statistics for Canada and Toronto, I see Cantonese and Mandarin listed separately but also "Chinese" itself listed separately from both.

Is the Chinese community in Toronto dominated by mainly one mutually understood Chinese language, more than one or both?
 
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I don't know which language is more common in Canada, but I see China as sort of like the European Union. There are lots of different languages that are related but different, Mandarin and Cantonese being the two largest, similar to German and French in Europe. One big difference is that since it's written form is logographic (based on pictures) rather than phonographic (based on sounds) the written language can be the same for both. It's like if in Europe there was a common symbol for "house" that both Germans and the French used, even though they pronounced it completely differently.
 
Some sources say that Cantonese and Mandarin are both considered dialects of one Chinese language while I hear that linguistics considers them far apart enough to be separate languages ...

The difference between "dialect" and "language" is loaded with all sorts of political and social implications, which is why you'll find cases where what are considered different "languages" have only minor variations in grammar, pronunciation, and spelling, while in other cases you'll have very different "dialects" which are not mutually comprehensible at all, but considered the same "language". Chinese and Arabic are examples which effectively aren't one specific language, but a language family: groups of languages descended from the same original classical language and considered "dialects", but in practice are very different from each other. To give it a European context: Portuguese and Romanian both originated from Latin, but we wouldn't think of them as dialects of the same language. But you will find differences as great as between those two languages or more in the various Chinese "dialects".

One thing which helps Chinese stay a bit more unified is the written language, but even then, there are differences between dialects, plus the fact that some regions (Taiwan and Hong Kong, for example) still use "traditional" characters, while the mainland and Singapore switched to a "simplified" system developed in the 20th century.
 
Yes, I have no data but my impression is that the source of immigration has shifted from Cantonese to Mandarin. Some parts of Toronto you hear Cantonese, but many parts you'll hear mostly Mandarin.

I believe Hong Kong being handed over to China from the British provoked some immigration in the 90's. Now I personally find most are from the rest of China.
 
Is the Chinese community in Toronto dominated by mainly one mutually understood Chinese language, more than one or both?

That depends....
Original immigrants from the 1900s spoke a peasant dialect called toiysun(sp ). From a Toronto perspective this was the old Chinatown where Nathan Phillips Square is, then the Dundas-Bay location>Dundas/Spadina>Broadview/Gerrard>to the other newer locations.

From the 1990s, you have the Hong Kong wave. That group commonly spoke Cantonese. Regional-wise Scarborough, Unionville and Markham
The more recent immigrant wave from mainland China are the Mandarin speakers. No specific region though I seem to run into more in Mississauga/Vaughn western portions of the GTA.
 
Without any hard data, my observations are clearly anecdotal but the general consensus here in Toronto, as well as in Vancouver, is that the new wave of Chinese immigrants are most certainly Mandarin-speaking from mainland China. The older generation was primarily from Hong Kong, which is Cantonese-speaking.

As far as areas settled in the city, the Cantonese speakers sowed roots in the Chinatowns as well as Scarborough/Markham, near Pacific Mall, for obvious reasons, and Richmond Hill. The Mandarin speakers seem to have settled predominantly in North York.

I find immigrants who settle in Mississauga and Vaughan are a truly a mixed demographic, with both Cantonese and Mandarin speakers all spread out within those regions.

The Canadian-born children of the Chinese immigrants pretty much mirror the wave of immigration, with the older Canadian-born Chinese being of Cantonese dialect and the younger kids who are born here being of Mandarin dialect.
 
Yup - and the Cantonese speaking wave from Hong Kong (80s to late 90s) was predated by Toi Shan speakers. The current wave from mainland China is the third (there is a small wave from Taiwan as well).

In terms of settlement areas - the Toi Shan group is in downtown around Chinatown; the Hongers were mainly in Scarborough in the 80s and gradually moved to Richmond Hill and Markham throughout the 90s; Mainland Chinese are popular a very similar footprint.

Here is a map based on the 2006 Census from the Star - of course, the information is no longer available for 2011 thanks to Long Form Census:

gta-language-quilt_main-e.jpg


AoD
 
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Ah, complicated issue full of misunderstandings.

The divide is not that clear cut for various reasons which is probably why stats are contradicting. First, what are Cantonese and Mandarin speakers? Many Cantonese speakers do speak Mandarin, especially the younger generation. And practically everyone from Guangdong province who speak Cantonese speak some Mandarin as well (that's the language they hear on TV). Second, those who identify themselves as "mandarins speakers" in the survey don't speak mandarin as native language. For example, a Shanghainese will most likely say she speaks Mandarin, only because she doesn't speak Cantonese and usually there is no Shanghainese for her to choose. The same apply to people from elsewhere.

More importantly, hardly anyone in China actually speaks Mandarin (Putonghua, literally means "common tongue" - the language used in the media and education) as their native tongue, for the simple reason that it is an artificial language (like Esperanto). It is largely based on north dialects but that doesn't mean they are the same. For example, people from Beijing don't speak Putonghua in daily lives. They speak Beijing dialect.

Mandarin also has another definition which means several dialect groups which are similar to each other, however, they aren't necessarily intelligible to each other. The "Mandarin" people speak in North Jiangsu, most of Anhui province is quite different from Putonghua and people from Beijing won't understand it - maybe 20% at best. The Mandarin in southwest China is a different group, which is kind of similar to Putonghua but not quite - it is like English in Scotland. Someone from Beijing probably understand 70-80%.

I agree Cantonese is a different language. But so is Minnan (in southern Fujian and Taiwan). Northern Fujian speaks the Min dialect too, but it is vastly different from Minnan (I have two friends from south and north Fujian who can't understand each other, so they speak Putonghua). Additionally, Wu, Xiang and Gan are considered separate language different from mandarin too because they have very low intelligibility with Mandarin. However, because these people are largely absent overseas, most people didn't account for the existence of their language.

So in the end, things have changed enough that we should stop think there are two kinds of Chinese: Cantonese and Mandarin. That ceases to be true. My observation is other Chinese language is rapidly replacing Cantonese. During the past 7 years, I saw quite many old restaurants run by Cantonese owners replaced by new Chinese who are from non-Cantonese speaking part of China. 10 years ago, the servers will give you a look if you speak anything other than Cantonese, but nowadays, they all have to speak Mandarin in order to keep their job because the clientel is changing.

In case it is not well know: in China itself, Cantonese has no special status. It is just one of those southern dialects among China's many. Nobody outside Guangdong will bother learning Cantonese for any reasons. HK movies/music makes it marginally more important than other dialects but the difference is small. On the other hand, in entire Guangdong, everyone who finishes primary school is able to speak Putonghua because that's a basic survival skill.
 
Ah, complicated issue full of misunderstandings................yadda,yadda,yadda.........
In case it is not well know: in China itself, Cantonese has no special status. It is just one of those southern dialects among China's many. Nobody outside Guangdong will bother learning Cantonese for any reasons. HK movies/music makes it marginally more important than other dialects but the difference is small. On the other hand, in entire Guangdong, everyone who finishes primary school is able to speak Putonghua because that's a basic survival skill.

Quite aware of the numerous dialects spoken in mainland China.
However, the OP was inquiring about the most common one spoken in Toronto.......
 
Quite aware of the numerous dialects spoken in mainland China.
However, the OP was inquiring about the most common one spoken in Toronto.......

That depends on who you speak to because by default most Chinese are bilingual. A Cantonese speaking person will speak Mandarin to me but Cantonese with another Cantonese person. A friend of mine speaks Cantonese but is from somewhere near Shanghai. Many people speak Cantonese and Mandarin equally well. How to define who speak Cantonese and who Mandarin? This is why I think this question doesn't have a good answer.
 
Give Statscan more credit - there are multiple questions on the language in the Long Form Census:

14 What language(s), other than English or French, can this person speak well enough to conduct a
conversation?
15(a) What language doesthis person speak most often at home
b) Does this person speak any other languages on a regular basis at home?
16 What is the language that this person first learned at home in childhood and still understands?

http://www23.statcan.gc.ca/imdb-bmdi/instrument/3901_Q2_V3-eng.pdf

You can reconstruct the lingustic and ethnic background of an individual quite well, with these and other questions contained therein. The map I've posted is based on "mother tongue", which for Cantonese speakers won't be Mandarin even if they spoke it.

AoD
 
That depends on who you speak to because by default most Chinese are bilingual. A Cantonese speaking person will speak Mandarin to me but Cantonese with another Cantonese person. A friend of mine speaks Cantonese but is from somewhere near Shanghai. Many people speak Cantonese and Mandarin equally well. How to define who speak Cantonese and who Mandarin? This is why I think this question doesn't have a good answer.

From what I've seen the majority of people are more comfortable with one or the other. Many mainly know one and don't know or barely know the other.
 
From what I've seen the majority of people are more comfortable with one or the other. Many mainly know one and don't know or barely know the other.

If someone wanted to produce media, like a speech, videos etc. geared toward the Chinese community in Toronto, would they have to put it in both or many of these Chinese languages/dialects to reach most of the Chinese language-speaking Torontonians? Or would most people that understand one language at least somewhat comprehend the other?
 
If someone wanted to produce media, like a speech, videos etc. geared toward the Chinese community in Toronto, would they have to put it in both or many of these Chinese languages/dialects to reach most of the Chinese language-speaking Torontonians? Or would most people that understand one language at least somewhat comprehend the other?

There are probably more Cantonese speakers who would understand Mandarin than the other way around.

AoD
 
When I was growing up in Toronto in the 90s, I got the impression that most Chinese Torontonians spoke Cantonese and I think a lot of times even tried to speak Cantonese to many other people who looked Chinese, so I assumed Cantonese was most common in Toronto. At the time when I was in high school into the early 2000s it seemed like this was the case.

I am in Chicago right now, and I have not heard any Chinese-Americans mention speaking Cantonese so far. I have been in the Northeast and Midwestern US for a few years to attend a university, and work and whenever I saw any Chinese international students, they would say they spoke Mandarin.

When I brought up the topic of Mandarin and Cantonese to one person from China while at a university campus, he even got confused about the name of the language I was talking about and then said to me something that implied there was only one "Chinese". However, I remember in high school, I had lots of classmates who spoke Cantonese and they were very adamant that it was different from Mandarin and that there was not just one language called "Chinese".

It was odd to me that growing up in Toronto, Cantonese was mentioned a lot, but in some places I will ask about Cantonese and some people will not even know what I'm talking about.
 
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