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Hey, c'mon Fellas! You all know poor Dougie was way out of his depth. It was a trick question, involving facts and projections, and honesty and awareness.

Give the guy a break! Ah look, you've made him cry now...
 
It's not all his fault. Our culture in North America is obsessed with single family housing. Even the condo hostility in Toronto stems from people's inability to comprehend the notion that condos too are real housing. It'll take a few generation before density gets mainstream acceptance.
 
It's not all his fault. Our culture in North America is obsessed with single family housing. Even the condo hostility in Toronto stems from people's inability to comprehend the notion that condos too are real housing. It'll take a few generation before density gets mainstream acceptance.
There are no excuses for Toronto! Montreal and Vancouver in Canada alone are more dense,
but Toronto loves to claim to be a "World Class City"...by what standards?

Even the Fraser Institute is showing that lower density actually *promotes* congestion.
CANADA

January 9, 2018 3:35 pm
Updated: January 9, 2018 9:27 pm
Population density in Toronto significantly less compared to other major cities: Fraser Institute
By Erica VellaDigital Broadcast Journalist Global News

Whether you live or commute in Toronto, all would agree that there is a lot of congestion in the city. Has Toronto become too dense in population? Erica Vella has the answers.


A A

A new study from the Fraser Institute says cities in Canada are significantly less dense than other major cities around the world.

The study lists population densities of 30 cities in high income and developed countries, and Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto come 13th, 16th and 19th on the list, respectively.

The most dense city listed is Hong Kong, with 25,719 people per square kilometre.

Fraser Institute senior policy analyst Josef Filipowicz said because Canadian cities are less dense, places like Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver can likely accommodate more housing supply.

“Toronto is a large growing city that is facing an affordability crunch,” Filipowicz said.

“What we found in our study is that there is a lot of room for Toronto to grow, notably upwards, through population density…When you compare Toronto to other North American or world cities in other high income countries, Toronto and other Canadian cities are not all that dense.”

LISTEN: Fraser Institute senior policy analyst Josef Filipowicz talks to Global Newsradio 640 Toronto

According to the study, Toronto has 4,457 people per square kilometre, Montreal has 4,916 people per square kilometre and Vancouver, Canada’s densest city, has 5,493 people per square kilometre.

The population density in New York City is more than double Toronto’s, with 10,935 people per square kilometre.

“Certainly, city hall and the province want more density [and] there is plenty of room to do it,”Filipowicz said.

“Toronto faces constraints on growing outwards. We have lake Ontario and provincial policy that makes it difficult to grow outward…so the only option that remains if wants to continue growing as a city is upwards, through higher population density.”

The list also includes Canadian cities like Mississauga with 2,468 people per square kilometre and Calgary with 2,112 people per square kilometre.

WATCH: Alan Carter speaks with Doug Saunders about population density

GTNH_2018_01_09_TorDensity_848x480_1133260867610.jpg

upload_2018-4-30_22-32-39-png.141904


© 2018 Global News, a division of Corus Entertainment Inc.
https://globalnews.ca/news/3954609/population-density-in-toronto-fraser-institute/
It's not all his fault.
You're right. He's in way over his head. It's always someone else's fault. He has enough of a challenge to count his toes.

Oh...and yes! If Dougie gets elected, he's going to order the Bank of Canada to print more money so the average working jerk can afford not one, but three homes! Now why hasn't anyone else done this, you ask? Well, because the *elites* are in charge. And feeding us with *fake news*.

Yesssirrreee! Dougie gets my bloat...errr...vote.
 
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It's not all his fault. Our culture in North America is obsessed with single family housing. Even the condo hostility in Toronto stems from people's inability to comprehend the notion that condos too are real housing. It'll take a few generation before density gets mainstream acceptance.

What condo hostility?

You do realize about 1/2 the population of Toronto rents, typically in mid or hirise towers, and when you add condos, you're well north of 60% of the population.

This notion that the City proper is all vast sprawl is a bit over done.

Lets also add at this juncture that if family size were the same as 2 generations ago, our density would be double what we're now reporting.

That's a part of the change.

I favour density, though my form of choice is mid-rise along main streets for the most part w/hirises in hubs and at nodes where merited.

We are intensifying quickly, even in the burbs. Downtown numbers already compare w/Paris and other major centres.

No, we're not getting to a 21,000 per sq km number when you include areas like Scarborough Bluffs, in the forseeable future.

But we are on pace to hit that number in the core and along the Yonge St. spine.

I expect you'll see the city wide numbers crest 5,000 in the near future and 6,000 within 15-17 years.
 
Under fire from Wynne and Horwath, Ford retreats from plan to develop Greenbelt

Doug Ford beats a rapid retreat from his controversial scheme to open up the Greenbelt’s protected land to development.

See link.

...
“The people have spoken — we won’t touch the Greenbelt. Very simple. That’s it, the people have spoken. I’m going to listen to them, they don’t want me to touch the Greenbelt. We won’t touch the Greenbelt. Simple as that,” Ford said Tuesday afternoon.

“There have been a lot of voices saying that they don’t want to touch the Greenbelt. I govern through the people; I don’t govern through government.”...

Yeah, right. Maybe will change his mind again after the election.
 
CANADA

January 9, 2018 3:35 pm
Updated: January 9, 2018 9:27 pm
Population density in Toronto significantly less compared to other major cities: Fraser Institute
By Erica VellaDigital Broadcast Journalist Global News

Whether you live or commute in Toronto, all would agree that there is a lot of congestion in the city. Has Toronto become too dense in population? Erica Vella has the answers.


A A

A new study from the Fraser Institute says cities in Canada are significantly less dense than other major cities around the world.

The study lists population densities of 30 cities in high income and developed countries, and Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto come 13th, 16th and 19th on the list, respectively.

The most dense city listed is Hong Kong, with 25,719 people per square kilometre.

Fraser Institute senior policy analyst Josef Filipowicz said because Canadian cities are less dense, places like Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver can likely accommodate more housing supply.

“Toronto is a large growing city that is facing an affordability crunch,” Filipowicz said.

“What we found in our study is that there is a lot of room for Toronto to grow, notably upwards, through population density…When you compare Toronto to other North American or world cities in other high income countries, Toronto and other Canadian cities are not all that dense.”

LISTEN: Fraser Institute senior policy analyst Josef Filipowicz talks to Global Newsradio 640 Toronto

According to the study, Toronto has 4,457 people per square kilometre, Montreal has 4,916 people per square kilometre and Vancouver, Canada’s densest city, has 5,493 people per square kilometre.

The population density in New York City is more than double Toronto’s, with 10,935 people per square kilometre.

“Certainly, city hall and the province want more density [and] there is plenty of room to do it,”Filipowicz said.

“Toronto faces constraints on growing outwards. We have lake Ontario and provincial policy that makes it difficult to grow outward…so the only option that remains if wants to continue growing as a city is upwards, through higher population density.”

The list also includes Canadian cities like Mississauga with 2,468 people per square kilometre and Calgary with 2,112 people per square kilometre.

WATCH: Alan Carter speaks with Doug Saunders about population density

GTNH_2018_01_09_TorDensity_848x480_1133260867610.jpg

upload_2018-4-30_22-32-39-png.141904


© 2018 Global News, a division of Corus Entertainment Inc.
https://globalnews.ca/news/3954609/population-density-in-toronto-fraser-institute/


I would like to see these numbers subtracting parklands and school yards.

I'm willing to put a strong bet that skews the numbers.

Not arguing for a moment that we aren't less dense than Paris or HK by a substantial measure.

Paris is not very tall in most areas, the additional density isn't from towers everywhere.

Its from less land devoted to greenspace and somewhat less to streets.

Of course its also from greater use of midrise form, which i fully support.

But graphs like this can be quite misleading all the same.
 
The greenbelt is mostly in the 905. It has forced development beyond - which is the 705.

Not even remotely true.

There is a huge amount of 'White Belt' land before you get to the greenbelt.

Land already zoned for residential where farms still sit today.

There is absolutely no need for developers to build in Barrie or K-W because of the Greenbelt.

Developers are building in those markets for three reasons. Local demand; they're allowed to, and Toronto-centric demand for lower prices.

You can build in Barrie or K-W and retail a home $200,000 cheaper than in the GTA. That's a function of land costs, and in some cases lower development charges.

Regardless it is not a function of the Greenbelt.

Though you make an excellent case for expanding the Greenbelt to curtail leap-frog sprawl. I favour extending it to any non-urban portions of Wellington, Waterloo, Grey, Dufferin and Simcoe.
 
It's not all his fault. Our culture in North America is obsessed with single family housing. Even the condo hostility in Toronto stems from people's inability to comprehend the notion that condos too are real housing. It'll take a few generation before density gets mainstream acceptance.
The people want (city cleared) driveways. Driveways driveways driveways.
 
But graphs like this can be quite misleading all the same.
When it comes to putting Dougie's claims in perspective, it's perfectly apt.

Both Horwath and Wynne, let alone anonymous Cons off-record have lambasted the Ford stripped transmission. He burned his clutch in the limited slip differential and polished his crown gear to boot.

Not to mention the 905 and further afield going ape:
[...]
Reaction to the revelation of Ford’s plan had been swift.

The Town of Oakville council voted unanimously Monday night to work with neighbouring municipalities to maintain the current Greenbelt, which includes massive parts of Halton Region.

“Sprawling development creates traffic jams and tax increases. He’s saying he’ll be moving the sprawl line outwards. Sad,” Oakville Mayor Rob Burton said in Twitter.

PC candidates in and around the GTHA had privately confided that the gaffe was hurting them with some voters.

“Everyone was wondering where this came from,” said one incredulous Tory candidate, speaking on background in order to discuss internal matters.

Another said the new leader’s derisive reference to “just farmer fields” was causing problems with some voters in rural Ontario

NDP Leader Andrea Horwath panned Ford, who leads in every public opinion poll.

“There is no reason whatsoever to even contemplate paving over the Greenbelt unless you’re trying to make a good buck for your friends in the development industry,” Horwath said in campaign swing in the Toronto riding of Davenport.

“Paving over farms and wetlands and green spaces is absolutely not good public policy,” she said.
[...]
https://www.thestar.com/news/queens...lop-greenbelt-as-wrong-on-so-many-levels.html

What's not to like about Ford disk breaks (sic)? He's every bit as smatij...spant....smarm...smart as Trunk! Err...Trump!

What a gift from the Gods for Wynne.
Yeah, right. Maybe will change his mind again after the election.
You give the 'man' too much credit. He doesn't have a mind of his own. Daddy couldn't give him everything ya know...isn't a collection of labels enough?

For reference:
Release date: May 3, 2017

More information

Highlights
  • The majority of occupied private dwellings in Canada in 2016 were single-detached houses. Single-detached houses represented 53.6% of all dwelling types in 2016. This share has been declining over the past three decades.
  • The share of dwellings that were apartments was highest in the census metropolitan areas (CMAs) of Montréal, Vancouver and Québec.
  • Toronto was the CMA with the largest share of dwellings in high-rise buildings (those with five or more storeys). Nearly 3 in 10 dwellings in Toronto were in high-rise apartment buildings.
  • In the Montréal CMA, 4 in 10 dwellings were in apartment buildings that have fewer than five storeys.
  • In Calgary and Edmonton, two of the fastest-growing CMAs, apartment dwellings accounted for a smaller share of all dwellings, at 25.4% and 26.5%, respectively.
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016005/98-200-x2016005-eng.cfm
 
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The greenbelt is mostly in the 905. It has forced development beyond - which is the 705.
No it hasn't. If what you were saying were true growth rates outside the Greenbelt would would have risen since it was established. They haven't. Growth in Newmarket for example has slowed down since 2005. Growth in Barrie has slowed down dramatically. Peterborough is growing at the same modest pace as before. I'm having trouble finding anywhere outside the Greenbelt that has seen growth accelerate. You're welcome to look for yourself - Wikipedia is a beautiful thing.

Growth in downtown Toronto, on the other hand, has sped up significantly. And the current poster child for stratospheric growth, Milton, is inside the Greenbelt.

I'm getting a kick out of all the fake outrage from the same people who are against density increases in their own neighborhoods.
You won't find much disagreement with that here on a largely pro-urban development site. And the outrage of NIMBYs hasn't stopped intensification from happening, at a pace unmatched in the Western world no less.

CANADA

January 9, 2018 3:35 pm
Updated: January 9, 2018 9:27 pm
Population density in Toronto significantly less compared to other major cities: Fraser Institute
By Erica VellaDigital Broadcast Journalist Global News

Whether you live or commute in Toronto, all would agree that there is a lot of congestion in the city. Has Toronto become too dense in population? Erica Vella has the answers.


A A

A new study from the Fraser Institute says cities in Canada are significantly less dense than other major cities around the world.

The study lists population densities of 30 cities in high income and developed countries, and Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto come 13th, 16th and 19th on the list, respectively.

The most dense city listed is Hong Kong, with 25,719 people per square kilometre.

Fraser Institute senior policy analyst Josef Filipowicz said because Canadian cities are less dense, places like Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver can likely accommodate more housing supply.

“Toronto is a large growing city that is facing an affordability crunch,” Filipowicz said.

“What we found in our study is that there is a lot of room for Toronto to grow, notably upwards, through population density…When you compare Toronto to other North American or world cities in other high income countries, Toronto and other Canadian cities are not all that dense.”

LISTEN: Fraser Institute senior policy analyst Josef Filipowicz talks to Global Newsradio 640 Toronto

According to the study, Toronto has 4,457 people per square kilometre, Montreal has 4,916 people per square kilometre and Vancouver, Canada’s densest city, has 5,493 people per square kilometre.

The population density in New York City is more than double Toronto’s, with 10,935 people per square kilometre.

“Certainly, city hall and the province want more density [and] there is plenty of room to do it,”Filipowicz said.

“Toronto faces constraints on growing outwards. We have lake Ontario and provincial policy that makes it difficult to grow outward…so the only option that remains if wants to continue growing as a city is upwards, through higher population density.”

The list also includes Canadian cities like Mississauga with 2,468 people per square kilometre and Calgary with 2,112 people per square kilometre.

WATCH: Alan Carter speaks with Doug Saunders about population density

GTNH_2018_01_09_TorDensity_848x480_1133260867610.jpg

upload_2018-4-30_22-32-39-png.141904


© 2018 Global News, a division of Corus Entertainment Inc.
https://globalnews.ca/news/3954609/population-density-in-toronto-fraser-institute/
While that's interesting, it's also misleading. It uses the population density of municipalities to tell a story that often doesn't reflect reality. While Toronto has the third highest municipal density in Canada, the whole Toronto urban area is the most densely populated in the country. Higher than Montreal and Vancouver but, of course, still much lower than Athens, Barcelona and Hong Kong. Municipal boundaries are pretty arbitrary so using them to compare population density gives you pretty meaningless results.

Well, one positive with creating new developments is that they can be transit oriented suburbs with dedicated BRT lanes on all arterial/minor arterial roads. Have developers be required to build the necessary infrastructure to support the developments (roads, hydro, cable, other utilities). Of course, this is all very theoretical and building up while out is definitely not a substitute to building up only. If there aren't the necessary arrangements to maintain the neighbourhoods, then this plan is completely garbage.
Developers already build up front infrastructure for new development both directly and indirectly (development charges, cash in lieu of parkland, etc.). I have no idea what percentage of the extra costs those charges pay for, but it's not insignificant. Building up and out at the same time is what the current Greenbelt and accompanying Growth Plan allow. As I mentioned in another thread, there's plenty of room inside the Greenbelt to meet demand for decades. Outward growth hasn't stopped, it's just slower and more dense.

As for new transit oriented suburbs, there's nothing about the Greenbelt that prevents that now. And opening it up for development wouldn't make that more likely. If anything I'd think that a Ford government would gut the Growth Plan and other provincial policy to allow lower density sprawl.
 
Here is the criteria for the graph and information posted prior from the Fraser Institute as per their study:
-As Canada’s most successful metropolitan areas continue to grow, they face pressures to grow outward—through the construction of new communities at the urban fringe—and upward—by accommodating more residents in existing urban areas, leading to higher populations densities. This bulletin compares population densities across 30 cities located in highincome countries.

-To ensure comparability between the cities analyzed, the study includes only fully urbanized municipalities or municipalities with rural land area and population removed from the density equation.

-Of the 30 cities analyzed, Canada’s largest have low population densities relative to international counterparts. The coastal tourist hubs of San Francisco and Barcelona are 1.31 and 2.89 times as dense as Vancouver, Canada’s densest major city. Chicago, New York, and London are 1.03, 2.45, and 2.48 times as dense as Canada’s financial and media centre, Toronto. Paris is 4.29 times as dense as Montreal, and even the Toronto suburb of Mississauga is 1.17 times as dense as Calgary, Canada’s third most populous municipality.

-Moreover, higher population densities need not come at the expense of living standards. Preliminary comparisons between population density in the cities included in this essay and Mercer’s 2017 Quality of Living Ranking indicate that cities of comparable density vary significantly in Mercer’s ranking.

-A better understanding of how cities differ in population density and how higher density might (or might not) affect living standards encourages citizens and policymakers to rethink their perceptions of urban living.
[...]
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sit...paring-urban-density-in-canada-and-abroad.pdf

There is some ambiguity as to what the Places to Grow Act entails as per development. It isn't banned, by any means, it's *controlled* by terms set out in the Act and others:
[...]
March 21, 2018
Draft Guidance to support municipal implementation of the Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe released for consultation

The Ministry of Municipal Affairs has released two draft technical guidance documents that will help municipalities in the Greater Golden Horseshoe implement the Growth Plan. The documents will assist municipalities in the region to carry out the municipal comprehensive review process, and reach the Growth Plan’s intensification and density targets. This guidance will help municipalities work towards complete communities where homes, jobs, schools, community services, parks and recreation facilities are easily accessible to their residents; a more compact urban form; and efficient use of infrastructure.

Please visit Ontario’s Environmental Registry (Notice 013-2359) to read the Draft Guidance documents, and to submit any comments and suggestions. Please note that the deadline for providing feedback has been extended to Tuesday June 19, 2018.

December 19, 2017

Proposed Methodology for Land Needs Assessment released for consultation

The Ministry of Municipal Affairs is seeking your input on the Proposed Methodology for Land Needs Assessment. Upper- and single-tier municipalities will use the methodology, once finalized by the Minister, to calculate how much land is needed to accommodate forecasted growth to the horizon of the Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe.

The Proposed Methodology for Land Needs Assessment and a Summary are available to read. Please submit any comments and suggestions on the proposed methodology by February 28, 2018.
[...]

https://www.placestogrow.ca/index.php

It's beyond doubt that Ford didn't have a clue....about anything really. Which is exactly the point...and ultimately, why his own Party should fear him as much or more than anyone else.

I wonder how many daggers will do the dirty deed?
 
It's not all his fault. Our culture in North America is obsessed with single family housing. Even the condo hostility in Toronto stems from people's inability to comprehend the notion that condos too are real housing. It'll take a few generation before density gets mainstream acceptance.
Well, it is his fault for perpetuating that notion
 
Well, it is his fault for perpetuating that notion

Why not, he couldn't even get himself to refrain from hyperbole for a certain project he ranted about:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/humbertown-plaza-revamp-opposed-by-doug-ford-1.1292427
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...nst-humbertown-redevelopment/article11931208/

So, instead of intensifying where it is appropriate, he want to prematurely open up the Greenbelt behind closed doors? Because "we cannot let these developers come in and bully us?"

The irony.

AoD
 
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