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Hipster Duck

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never mind the fact that every track that has a thin platform also has access to a wider one. If they really wanted to they could simply close those platforms down. only every other platform is thin.\

"Wide" is very relative. Right now, every platform is so narrow that you essentially can't get around the staircase on the platform itself. You are forced to use that staircase to access and exit the platform.

1,500 people taking 5 minutes to leave a platform currently is neither something to aspire to, nor something that translates to future operations. This is tolerable only because the train itself has a ten minute dwell time. Under regional rail operations, the train has a 60 second dwell time, and people will be waiting on the platform to board the train as people exit and snake their way through the crowd to get to the staircase. By the time people exit, another train will have arrived and the cycle will repeat itself. I mean, maybe it's possible, but I don't know a central station with serious regional rail that doesn't have wide platforms - at least platforms wide enough to build a wide staircase for both access and egress and the possibility for people on the platform to manoeuver around.

You also simply can't close those platforms down and widen the existing platforms because the concrete support structures are placed under the tracks to hold up the weight of the train. Since you can't move the tracks, you can't move the platforms.
 

Filip

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I think the only saviour for Union will be a massive underground terminal (difficult to do given we just dug a shopping centre underneath) and keep the above-ground shed portion for infrequent trains, intercity and HSR.

Basically we're so screwed.
 

nfitz

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I think the only saviour for Union will be a massive underground terminal ...
Isn't that pretty much what GO is talking about (either that, or the above-ground terminal west of Spadina).

I'd think that the underground terminal would primarily be east of Bay ... which wouldn't conflict with any of the recent construction under the station.
 
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Filip

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Isn't that pretty much what GO is talking about (either that, or the above-ground terminal west of Spadina).

I'm just surprised this was not mentioned as part of Murray's announcement. What they're trying to achieve (that I think is probably the best piece of transit news to come out of this city ever, period) will require a brand new Union Station. I think the cost of this entire exercise will be well north of $29 billion.
 

innsertnamehere

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"Wide" is very relative. Right now, every platform is so narrow that you essentially can't get around the staircase on the platform itself. You are forced to use that staircase to access and exit the platform.

1,500 people taking 5 minutes to leave a platform currently is neither something to aspire to, nor something that translates to future operations. This is tolerable only because the train itself has a ten minute dwell time. Under regional rail operations, the train has a 60 second dwell time, and people will be waiting on the platform to board the train as people exit and snake their way through the crowd to get to the staircase. By the time people exit, another train will have arrived and the cycle will repeat itself. I mean, maybe it's possible, but I don't know a central station with serious regional rail that doesn't have wide platforms - at least platforms wide enough to build a wide staircase for both access and egress and the possibility for people on the platform to manoeuver around.

You also simply can't close those platforms down and widen the existing platforms because the concrete support structures are placed under the tracks to hold up the weight of the train. Since you can't move the tracks, you can't move the platforms.

none of the lines will be at 60 second frequencies, 3 minutes at most for lakeshore. Plus they will not be dropping off 1,500 people, 500-600 is more like it.

You also seem to be forgetting that the project underway will be roughly doubling platform exits, meaning exit times for even the 1500 person trains will be much faster. maybe given the dual platform access, one platform can be dedicated to boardings and the other dedicated to alightings. thin platform for boardings in the morning, and switch it for the evening.

We are not as dead as many of you are making it out to be. Running smaller EMUs makes the situation much easier than simply growing the service with 1,500 person haulers.
 
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TFC

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I think that satellite terminals with subway access will be the solution to Toronto's regional rail problems.
 

AlvinofDiaspar

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Keep in mind too -given how hemmed in Union Station is now, chances are you will lose tracks if you widen the platforms, which will create a different set of issues.

AoD
 

innsertnamehere

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you could make it so that no tracks have access to 2 platforms, which would free up space as you could still fit in just as many tracks but with fewer platforms.
 

AlvinofDiaspar

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innsertnamehere:

Of course - though there are competing schemes that could come into play as well (east/west reliever stations connected to some form of DRL, etc). Maybe it's finally time to rethink having a Midtown GO line...

AoD
 

ShonTron

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I'm just surprised this was not mentioned as part of Murray's announcement. What they're trying to achieve (that I think is probably the best piece of transit news to come out of this city ever, period) will require a brand new Union Station. I think the cost of this entire exercise will be well north of $29 billion.

Which is why GO presented long-term proposals to either build a regional rail tunnel under Union Station for Lakeshore Trains, or a second station at Spadina/Front for Milton, Barrie and/or Georgetown trains, connected by the DRL to the Financial District. (Such a plan must also have platforms for Lakeshore trains to stop there, IMO, to provide connections to other trains at Union.)
 

Wrenkin

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you could make it so that no tracks have access to 2 platforms, which would free up space as you could still fit in just as many tracks but with fewer platforms.

It's hard to move tracks. The problem is that there are support pillars under the current tracks. The current renovation just extended them further downwards.

urbantoronto-6531-21240.jpg
 

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Northern Magus

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Which is why GO presented long-term proposals to either build a regional rail tunnel under Union Station for Lakeshore Trains, or a second station at Spadina/Front for Milton, Barrie and/or Georgetown trains, connected by the DRL to the Financial District. (Such a plan must also have platforms for Lakeshore trains to stop there, IMO, to provide connections to other trains at Union.)

This. The second station option is probably the most cost-effective and technically feasible.

These kind of investments won't come cheap, but they'll work far better than just saying "subways, subways, subways".
 

innsertnamehere

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second station also has to include the cost of building the connecting subway, and in terms of connections (which will be much more important if every line is running at 15 minute frequencies) I feel the underground Lakeshore station is preferred. Regardless I have a feeling that switching to 6 car EMUs will keep Union under capacity for a longer period of time as the crush loads of 1,500 people entering the station at once will no longer occur. the underground station likely won't be required until the 2030's or later.
 

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