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MisterF

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Rail lines are cheaper? Maybe existing ones. Building new ones is surely more expensive than roads, hence the high price tag of HSR.
I'm talking about regional rail that could carry trains at up to 200 km/h, which isn't much faster than current VIA Rail trains. 300 km/h HSR is much more expensive. As for highways, the first phase of the 407 cost $1.6 billion not including land acquisition. The 407 East through Durham is going to cost about $2 billion for 68 km of highway - that's almost $30 million/km.

In contrast, the completely rebuilt rail line to Peterborough was budgeted at somewhere between $150-300 million for about 120 km. The not as extensively rebuilt GO line to Barrie cost $25 million, and it included 20 km of completely new track. Even if you double or triple those numbers for a brand new rail line in a new right of way it would still be cheaper than a new highway.
 
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TOareaFan

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It might be more useful if someone with the knowledge of costings and such could take what is proposed in this report.....and say "rather than these roads to serve these people, we could build the following transit lines for that $629 million"....the politicians that have to answer to people stuck in long commutes to and from work don't get to speak in the abstract they have to come up with plans.

What could be done in that area for that money that was less car centric?
 

junctionist

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Even if transit is more costly than the $629 million dollars, it will probably move more people faster, if the communities are designed around it. The more people that are in a position to "benefit" from a freeway, the more traffic you will have, and the poorer the quality of commute.
 

Haljackey

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Rail/transit is very effective for commuters traveling between home and work.

I would assume the Halton-Peel link is not really a commuting route, so other transport modes can be used here. A freeway will essentially help "free" road congestion on local streets, making the overall network more efficient. Weather or not the freeway is really needed is up for debate, but since it is already in the planning stages, one would assume there is indeed a need even in today's "anti-car" way of thinking.
 

Coruscanti Cognoscente

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In trying to come up with a 400-series name for this new highway, I was looking at Google Maps for nearby numbered roads from the provincial highway system. None of the ones I found were provincial, only regional. So I decided that we could make this a portion of the 407, and then give back the portion of the 407 from Hamilton to Mississauga that was supposed to be the 403. Problem is then you'd have a 407 N/S section in a T-interchange I guess you'd call it with the E/W 407 section.
 

EnviroTO

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They could make it the 425. Make the 407ETR and 425ETR toll routes. The 425ETR would run the current 407ETR route from Hamilton to the 401 and continue north, the 407 would start at the 401 and head east, and the 403 in Mississauga would be renumbered the 410 to deal with the fact that the 403 that runs Woodstock to Hamilton, and the 403 which runs from the QEW to the 401 will not be the same freeway until tolls are removed from the freeway that connects them.
 

Electrify

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Would like to add that this highway would be used by more than private automobiles, but also for commercial transport of goods as well. Examples include food from farms to retail, and raw materials to manufacturing, etc. Yes this stuff can, and is, carried by rail, but over short and intermediate distances it doesn't make sense to transfer to rail and back to trucks. And considering the rural nature of this route, I'm willing to bet that the majority of traffic along it will be commercial.
 

Coruscanti Cognoscente

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They could make it the 425. Make the 407ETR and 425ETR toll routes. The 425ETR would run the current 407ETR route from Hamilton to the 401 and continue north, the 407 would start at the 401 and head east, and the 403 in Mississauga would be renumbered the 410 to deal with the fact that the 403 that runs Woodstock to Hamilton, and the 403 which runs from the QEW to the 401 will not be the same freeway until tolls are removed from the freeway that connects them.

Renumbering the 403 in Mississauga to 410 makes sense only for the north-south portion. Beyond that, 410 wouldn't make sense since it wouldn't be parallel with the former Highway 10 anymore.

I don't know if I made this clear in my post, but I wanted to swap the HP Freeway with the 407 between Hamilton and Mississauga, i.e. the 407 be renamed 403 to make the 403 continuous as it was meant to be (i.e. not cosigned with QEW). I'm sure that portion is long ago paid off by tolls. Yeah, 407 ETR wouldn't want to give it up for a short HP Freeway, but it'd be nice.

I had to look up Highway 25 and I saw why you chose it, although it's a little far from where the HP Freeway would be, but I guess it's the best we can do.
 

unimaginative2

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I'm not sure how it would fit with the naming conventions (disentanglement follies!) but I don't think it would be a 400-series highway since it seems like a municipal project, like the DVP or Lincoln Alexander.
 

aleesia

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Even though the Halton-Peel Freeway and the GTA West Corridor are different studies, they have shared the same conclusion for the part along the Halton-Peel Freeway's study area. Remember that GTA West wanted to go to Milton to connect to the 401, but Halton Region appealed the decision, so now it is proposed to connect to the 401 via the proposed alignment of Halton-Peel Freeway.

So it may get a 400-series designation, I think.
 

Memph

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Really? Then tell me, if you would, where all the other larger communities are that have one highway connection to the road network AND very limited GO service AND populations of 500,000 people?

There are challenges all over the GTA but if the challenges of Brampton are just dismissed as people not being "hard don-by" then we have very little hope.
I agree, Brampton is basically a city of 500,000 with the highway and transit infrastructure of a city of 200,000 and plans for 800,000... It really needs to slow down population growth dramatically if you ask me. 3 GO stations aren't going to serve a city of 800,000 either, that's just ridiculous, no matter how good the service is. The portion of Brampton's population that works Downtown Toronto is relatively small too. Probably most of the new residents that would live in West Brampton would work in Meadowvale, Airport Corporate Centre, Milton and the new employment around the 401. For the development in Gore/Springdale, most people would work in Vaughan, ACC and other employment around Pearson and Bramalea. Brampton is the GTA municipality with the most blue collar workers, so not that many people will commute to DT Toronto (relatively easy to connect with transit). Brampton also has fewer jobs than workers, unlike Mississauga, Markham and Vaughan, so a lot of residents have to commute to other suburbs/outer Toronto for work.

What Brampton needs to do imo is basically stop any outwards residential growth, try to attract more jobs and catch up on transit and roads.
 

TOareaFan

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I agree, Brampton is basically a city of 500,000 with the highway and transit infrastructure of a city of 200,000 and plans for 800,000... It really needs to slow down population growth dramatically if you ask me. 3 GO stations aren't going to serve a city of 800,000 either, that's just ridiculous, no matter how good the service is. The portion of Brampton's population that works Downtown Toronto is relatively small too. Probably most of the new residents that would live in West Brampton would work in Meadowvale, Airport Corporate Centre, Milton and the new employment around the 401. For the development in Gore/Springdale, most people would work in Vaughan, ACC and other employment around Pearson and Bramalea. Brampton is the GTA municipality with the most blue collar workers, so not that many people will commute to DT Toronto (relatively easy to connect with transit). Brampton also has fewer jobs than workers, unlike Mississauga, Markham and Vaughan, so a lot of residents have to commute to other suburbs/outer Toronto for work.

What Brampton needs to do imo is basically stop any outwards residential growth, try to attract more jobs and catch up on transit and roads.

Interesting discussion......some points/questions.

do you know (I don't) what portion of Brampton's population works downtown? Why would it be "small"....anectdotally, the traffic on the "step ladder" of highways made up of the 410-401-427-Gardiner seems pretty busy.....I always assumed that there were others (others being a substitute for a large number I don't know) making a Brampton-DT Toronto commute.

How does Brampton slow down its growth? The province is actually encouraging it to grow further, the same province who control the purse strings on the highways and regional transportation that you/we/all acknowledge needs to improve. So what is a city of over 500k to do when the next tier of government wants it to get bigger but is reluctant to provide the tools to make the current population and it's encouraged growth workable/liveable?

Mississauga, Markham and Vaughan have more jobs than workers but Brampton has less jobs than workers....where do these numbers come from?

EDIT....it is also a bit of a dilema when told to attract new jobs....when one of the key factors in businesses (large) selecting a location is ease of mobility (people, goods, products) into and out of the chosen location.
 
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W. K. Lis

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Maybe to "save" money, the province could do a "Mike Harris" and download the 403 to the Region of Peel, just like Mike downloaded the QEW to the city of Toronto (east of the 427).
 

Memph

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Interesting discussion......some points/questions.

do you know (I don't) what portion of Brampton's population works downtown? Why would it be "small"....anectdotally, the traffic on the "step ladder" of highways made up of the 410-401-427-Gardiner seems pretty busy.....I always assumed that there were others (others being a substitute for a large number I don't know) making a Brampton-DT Toronto commute.

How does Brampton slow down its growth? The province is actually encouraging it to grow further, the same province who control the purse strings on the highways and regional transportation that you/we/all acknowledge needs to improve. So what is a city of over 500k to do when the next tier of government wants it to get bigger but is reluctant to provide the tools to make the current population and it's encouraged growth workable/liveable?

Mississauga, Markham and Vaughan have more jobs than workers but Brampton has less jobs than workers....where do these numbers come from?

EDIT....it is also a bit of a dilema when told to attract new jobs....when one of the key factors in businesses (large) selecting a location is ease of mobility (people, goods, products) into and out of the chosen location.
Well first of all I don't think the province should encourage Brampton to grow so much, they should rather encourage Toronto, Markham, Vaughan, Mississauga and Oakville to grow a bit more. Brampton could also try to encourage what ever residential and commercial growth it does take on around GO Stations, the future Hwy 10 LRT and Zum to minimize the amount of additional traffic. This would be done by improving transit and zoning, and maybe creating public ammenities in these areas. I don't really have a plan for how Brampton could increase the amount of jobs it has, but if it can avoid too much additional traffic from residential/commercial, that should help make it more feasible for industry to locate there. On a related note, I'm not convinced encourage so much growth in Milton is good either, since it will likely increase congestion on the 401 and the place seems to have pretty hopeless transit.

As for how many people from Brampton commute to downtown Toronto, I'm not saying it's completely insignificant, but I'd guess maybe around 10% of Brampton workers? The vast majority work elsewhere.

Here's where it says Vaughan, Markham and Mississauga have more jobs than workers while Brampton has less: http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2006/as-sa/97-561/table/t9-eng.cfm

I think most of the outer 905 has fewer jobs than workers. You can see that from 2001 to 2006 at least, Brampton has been becoming more and more of a bedroom community while Mississauga has been becoming more and more of a job centre. It's not that Brampton isn't adding a lot of jobs, it's just that the job growth isn't keeping up with population growth, Brampton's population is growing much faster than Mississauga's.

As for most of Brampton's residents working elsewhere than Downtown Toronto, Downtown Toronto has about 400,000-500,000 jobs, depending on how you define the area. The whole GTA has about 3 million jobs. If about 13-17% of GTA residents work in downtown Toronto, why would that percentage be higher for Brampton? The percent of Toronto residents working downtown is probably higher, since downtown is closer, which means the percent for certain suburbs is lower. I wouldn't be surprised if more people (in % terms) from Oakville, Richmond Hill, Georgetown or Aurora worked downtown Toronto than from Brampton. Downtown Toronto jobs are generally high paying jobs, the kind that residents from these wealthy suburbs would have. Brampton I suspect has a lot more people working in manufacturing and retail, and those jobs would mostly be in Brampton and other suburban areas.

This says roughly where Brampton residents work.
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...&SearchType=Begins&SearchPR=01&B1=All&Custom=

In 2006...

31.7% worked in Brampton
26.6% worked in a different census division of Ontario, probably mostly Toronto and York Region and some in Halton Region
25.6% worked elsewhere in Mississauga and Caledon
11.4% had no fixed workplace address (I guess like truck or cab drivers, maybe construction and landscaping jobs would could too?)
4.1% worked at home
0.5% worked outside Canada
0.1% worked in another province

This is a map of where the jobs are in the Toronto MSA:
http://www5.statcan.gc.ca/access_ac...WorkplaceResidence/TorontoPOW_PowPor_ec-2.pdf

Seems like Milton has about 23,000 jobs to 28,000 workers
Halton Hills has 17,000 jobs to 27,000 workers
Caledon has 19,000 jobs to 28,500 workers
Oakville has 75,000 jobs to 92,500 workers
Richmond Hill has 59,000 jobs to 90,500 workers
Aurora has 20,000 jobs to 26,000 workers
King has 6,500 jobs 11,000 workers
Newmarket has 39,000 jobs to 41,000 workers
Orangeville has 12,000 jobs to 14,500 workers

So pretty much the pattern seems to be a deficit of jobs relative to workers in the outer 905 (which includes Brampton) and a surplus in the inner 905. The patterns is probably the same for the inner/outer 416, Old Toronto has a surplus of jobs, and Scarborough most likely has a deficit, hard to say for the rest.
 

TOareaFan

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Thanks for the reasoned and detaile reply....very refreshing!

Well first of all I don't think the province should encourage Brampton to grow so much,

Bit late for that ;)

they should rather encourage Toronto, Markham, Vaughan, Mississauga and Oakville to grow a bit more.

I think each of those is expected to take some growth......but Brampton is being asked/encouraged to take a lot and not receiving (IMHO) anywhere close the right level of support/investment in provincial level infrastructure.

Brampton could also try to encourage what ever residential and commercial growth it does take on around GO Stations, the future Hwy 10 LRT and Zum to minimize the amount of additional traffic. This would be done by improving transit and zoning, and maybe creating public ammenities in these areas.

I wonder how that gets done? Brampton has created policies around intensification in areas served by its own transit and GO. Their Queen Street Intensification plan is, what, 20 years old? While it has seen some of the car dealerships along Queen Street disappear....those have, largely, been replaced by empty land. The city has regularly fought (sometimes inappropriately IMO http://www.bramptonguardian.com/news/cityhall/article/1521043--omb-hearing-to-start-oct-29 ) high-rise development in other areas of the city and constatntly telling the developers "that should be on Queen Street"....the "market" however seems to be saying otherwise as former car lots are sitting empty and none of the inefficient low rise retail has been replaced.

As for intensification around GO....this is also a City goal/plan......the entire Mt. Pleasant area in the NW is geared around the GO station......the area around the station in the downtown is an area the city would love to see high rise development (they have had limited success there and it is felt that will continue until the $300 million TRCA mandated upgrade to the flood management system is funded/built). Locationally, any residential development around the Bramalea station is a bit unrealistic.

That said, it is very difficult to sell the consumer on the value of living near train stations that have such limited ability to get them places as the line currently has.

It could be argued that Brampton, with its transit/planning/zoning policies, has been very proactive in terms of attempts to "de-suburbanize" but there limits to what a municipality can do on its own.


I don't really have a plan for how Brampton could increase the amount of jobs it has, but if it can avoid too much additional traffic from residential/commercial, that should help make it more feasible for industry to locate there. On a related note, I'm not convinced encourage so much growth in Milton is good either, since it will likely increase congestion on the 401 and the place seems to have pretty hopeless transit.

With (I believe) the lowest commercial tax rates in the GTA and the highest (I believe) residential mill rates, the city is doing a lot to attract businesses and is, actually, having residents subsidize that effort. While that policy has had some success in attracting a lot of industrial/warehousing, it has had virtually no impact on the office/white collar employers. I believe that those lower costs are offset in the minds of businesses by the access issues. Getting in and out of town (either via car, train or bus) is very difficult. Not surprisingly, the only real success the City has had has been on the very fringes of town in the new business parks as the internal difficulties have less impact. On these boards, though, it is often expressed that these are bad developments and, somehow, Brampton should discourage those and just, I don't know, not have any jobs.



As for how many people from Brampton commute to downtown Toronto, I'm not saying it's completely insignificant, but I'd guess maybe around 10% of Brampton workers? The vast majority work elsewhere.

I was gonna jump in with "so it's a guesstimate" but I see where you expand on it later on......based on the 2006 census (I guess the 2011 details are not out yet) that would be a far from insignificant number (as you noted) of 22.5k people making that commute per day.


Here's where it says Vaughan, Markham and Mississauga have more jobs than workers while Brampton has less: http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2006/as-sa/97-561/table/t9-eng.cfm

Thanks (for this and the other links)....I am lousy at finding stuff on statscan's site. ;)


I think most of the outer 905 has fewer jobs than workers. You can see that from 2001 to 2006 at least, Brampton has been becoming more and more of a bedroom community while Mississauga has been becoming more and more of a job centre. It's not that Brampton isn't adding a lot of jobs, it's just that the job growth isn't keeping up with population growth, Brampton's population is growing much faster than Mississauga's.

I think we agree that is a problem....we maybe disagreeing on the source of the solution.

As for most of Brampton's residents working elsewhere than Downtown Toronto, Downtown Toronto has about 400,000-500,000 jobs, depending on how you define the area. The whole GTA has about 3 million jobs. If about 13-17% of GTA residents work in downtown Toronto, why would that percentage be higher for Brampton?

I don't think I ever said that it would be higher than the regional average....was just surprised/questioning of the notion that it would be significantly lower. But (to keep this, at least, a little relevant to the discussion of roads/mobility investment) 10% of Brampton's workforce is a bit higher than 15% of, say, Oakville's (assuming Brampton's DT Toronto commuters are a bit below the average and Oakville's are a bit above).

The percent of Toronto residents working downtown is probably higher, since downtown is closer, which means the percent for certain suburbs is lower. I wouldn't be surprised if more people (in % terms) from Oakville, Richmond Hill, Georgetown or Aurora worked downtown Toronto than from Brampton. Downtown Toronto jobs are generally high paying jobs, the kind that residents from these wealthy suburbs would have. Brampton I suspect has a lot more people working in manufacturing and retail, and those jobs would mostly be in Brampton and other suburban areas.

I can agree on most of that.......not sure why a higher percent of Georgetown folks would work in DT Toronto than Brampton folks but that is getting nitpicky. Some anectdotal stuff though......I make a decent living and live in Brampton because, well, I always have (it's home).....not everyone here at my place of work makes what I make (some of the office staffers in all of these towers make similar wages to the blue collar workers in the factories of Brampton)...but a lot of them choose to live in some of the places you mention (and pay home prices/mortgage payments that make my head shake) precisely because of the access issues. At the end of the day (they say) being able to get to their home in Oakville much easier is worth the debt they carry....in a strange way, taking taxes from the large population of places like Brampton, providing better services to places like Oakville, is not only a direct subsidy but an indirect one as it that becomes a contributing factor in the success/desirability of those communities and, therefore, their higher home values. I am not saying that transit/roads/etc are the only reason my home is worth half of what it would be worth if it were in Oakville....but when you talk to people about why they choose a community, ease of commute/mobility and access to roads and healthcare are high on the lists.


thanks again.
 
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