[mistersg1]

Not sure if this belongs here, it can be moved if necessary.

Anyways, I’m aware that 16th Avenue derives from the Concession Road system, where in York County’s case, concessions were drawn 100 chains or 1.25 miles apart. This makes sense for the naming conventions of both 14th Avenue and 19th Avenue.

Obviously, Queen (formerly Lot Street many years ago) is the first concession, yet by the position of 16th Avenue, Queen should be 5th Avenue. What gives? It’s something I’ve always wanted to know.

 

[Johnny Au]

Not sure if this belongs here, it can be moved if necessary.

Anyways, I’m aware that 16th Avenue derives from the Concession Road system, where in York County’s case, concessions were drawn 100 chains or 1.25 miles apart. This makes sense for the naming conventions of both 14th Avenue and 19th Avenue.

Obviously, Queen (formerly Lot Street many years ago) is the first concession, yet by the position of 16th Avenue, Queen should be 5th Avenue. What gives? It’s something I’ve always wanted to know.

Queen Street (formerly Lot Street) is in what was the Township of York.

16th Avenue in Markham is part of a different township: the Township of Markham.

Different townships have different concession reckonings.

For Markham, 1st Line is Yonge Street, 2nd Line is Bayview Avenue and so on until 12th Line, which is the York-Durham Line. 13th Avenue is also known as Steeles Avenue, there's 14th Avenue, there's 15th Avenue (also known as Highway 7), then there's 16th Avenue, then there's 17th Avenue (also known as Major Mackenzie Drive), then there's 18th Avenue (also known as Elgin Mills Road), then 19th Avenue, then finally 20th Avenue (also known as Stouffville Road).

For Toronto (specifically the part that was formerly York Township), Queen Street is the first concession, Bloor Street is the second, St. Clair Avenue is the third, Eglinton Avenue is the fourth and so on with Steeles Avenue being the 9th concession.

Yes, Steeles Avenue was both the 9th Concession (going by York Township reckoning) and 13th Avenue (going by Township of Markham reckoning).

 

[drum118]

As noted, it depends on the area and cities how roads and street are tag. Some places use names only while other use numbers only or an combination of both. You have places that have 16th Ave NE and 114th St N starting from X point in the city.

I prefer the number as this will tells you what part of the city it is in than just a name than having to lookup that street name to see where it is in the city. It also does away dealing with street names that may upset ppl born decades as they were name.

Google search is your best friend for finding things, but not everything can be found out there.

Toronto Queen St W had 3 different names for it in the beginning. There was and still is an issue as to how St Clair got its name.

Names and number for roads applies to many places around the world.

 

[Northern Light]

Queen Street (formerly Lot Street) is in what was the Township of York.

16th Avenue in Markham is part of a different township: the Township of Markham.

Different townships have different concession reckonings.

For Markham, 1st Line is Yonge Street, 2nd Line is Bayview Avenue and so on until 12th Line, which is the York-Durham Line. 13th Avenue is also known as Steeles Avenue, there's 14th Avenue, there's 15th Avenue (also known as Highway 7), then there's 16th Avenue, then there's 17th Avenue (also known as Major Mackenzie Drive), then there's 18th Avenue (also known as Elgin Mills Road), then 19th Avenue, then finally 20th Avenue (also known as Stouffville Road).

For Toronto (specifically the part that was formerly York Township), Queen Street is the first concession, Bloor Street is the second, St. Clair Avenue is the third, Eglinton Avenue is the fourth and so on with Steeles Avenue being the 9th concession.

Yes, Steeles Avenue was both the 9th Concession (going by York Township reckoning) and 13th Avenue (going by Township of Markham reckoning).

Excellent answer! Very thorough!

But bear with me while I process you making use of the word 'reckoning'; which I associate with a mid-south/mid-west Appalachian rural feller, gett'in on w/the boys about dem der problem kids from o'er there.

Its totally messing w/my mental picture of you! LOL

 

[nfitz]

See also https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/the-ontario-township-survey-system.19183/

 

[Deadpool X]

I prefer the number as this will tells you what part of the city is than just a name than having to lookup that street name to see where it is in the city. It also does away dealing with street names that may upset ppl born decades as they were name.

In my opinion, names give a place its character and it becomes more recognizable. Imagine if King St was 3rd Ave, Lawrence was 15th Ave, Sheppard was 19th Ave. It would have felt boring, devoid of character. Imagine if cities had numbers instead of names. Imagine if Paris were City 342, Toyko 147, Cairo 940.

In New York, for example, street names like Park Avenue or Broadway and place names like Soho and Hell's Kitchen are more recognizable than a name like 9th Avenue.

Having numbers as street names helps for the first few times when you are new to that place. After that it stops mattering. And now with Google Maps, numbers don't help at all. You get all your directions that you want.

 

[Johnny Au]

Excellent answer! Very thorough!

But bear with me while I process you making use of the word 'reckoning'; which I associate with a mid-south/mid-west Appalachian rural feller, gett'in on w/the boys about dem der problem kids in from o'er there.

Its totally messing w/my mental picture of you! LOL

I use "numbering system" and "reckoning" interchangeably depending on context.

reckoning - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

I use the dictionary definition of "reckoning" when it comes to using numbered streets to estimate the distance between streets.

Rubes simply misuse the term "reckoning."

 

[AHK]

I use "numbering system" and "reckoning" interchangeably depending on context.

reckoning - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

I use the dictionary definition of "reckoning" when it comes to using numbered streets to estimate the distance between streets.

Rubes simply misuse the term "reckoning."

And then there is the shopping centre at the intersection of what used to be the intersection of Seventh Line and Lower Middle Road in Oakville - Oakville Place, with the roads now known as Trafalgar and and the QEW.

And yes, Upper Middle Road used to be accompanied by Lower Middle Road - the two main roads between Highway 2 (Lakeshore Road) and Highway 5 (Dundas Street). Lower Middle Road disappeared when the Oakville section of the QEW was built over it.

 

[T3G]

In my opinion, names give a place its character and it becomes more recognizable. Imagine if King St was 3rd Ave, Lawrence was 15th Ave, Sheppard was 19th Ave. It would have felt boring, devoid of character. Imagine if cities had numbers instead of names. Imagine if Paris were City 342, Toyko 147, Cairo 940.

In New York, for example, street names like Park Avenue or Broadway and place names like Soho and Hell's Kitchen are more recognizable than a name like 9th Avenue.

Having numbers as street names helps for the first few times when you are new to that place. After that it stops mattering. And now with Google Maps, numbers don't help at all. You get all your directions that you want.

Not only that, but I'm not sure New York should be given as an example of useful wayfinding. Every borough has its own numbering system which cancels out any alleged usefulness, there are multiple streets which share the same name such as Broadway, and then there is this:

 

[Transportfan]

I prefer the number as this will tells you what part of the city it is in than just a name than having to lookup that street name to see where it is in the city.

Doesn't help much in this case though. It should be named Carreville Road East.

 

[drum118]

Not only that, but I'm not sure New York should be given as an example of useful wayfinding. Every borough has its own numbering system which cancels out any alleged usefulness, there are multiple streets which share the same name such as Broadway, and then there is this:

View attachment 453005

This I have never seen in my travels or cities I have spent time in and off the wall from my point of view. A few of those places could had used a name since there is a name road. Not well thought out.

 

[lenaitch]

Excellent answer! Very thorough!

But bear with me while I process you making use of the word 'reckoning'; which I associate with a mid-south/mid-west Appalachian rural feller, gett'in on w/the boys about dem der problem kids from o'er there.

Its totally messing w/my mental picture of you! LOL

I'm not aware that "reckoning" has a specific land survey application, but it does have application in math/accounting as well as navigation.

I'll allow it

I am also a fan of names vs numbers for street identification; although I do understand the concession/sideroad numbering of roads that were once rural. As they are finding out with Dundas, re-naming a road has a not-insignificant cost. I think names add more character. On the other hand, with numbering there is very little chance of running afoul of historic dredging.

 

[Northern Light]

I'm not aware that "reckoning" has a specific land survey application, but it does have application in math/accounting as well as navigation.

I'll allow it

I am also a fan of names vs numbers for street identification; although I do understand the concession/sideroad numbering of roads that were once rural. As they are finding out with Dundas, re-naming a road has a not-insignificant cost. I think names add more character. On the other hand, with numbering there is very little chance of running afoul of historic dredging.

Just you wait til people find out the details about the man who invented the Hindu-Arabic number system (ours); then we'll be in trouble, we'll have to rename all the numbers lest the existing names be seen as honouring the man who chose them!

 

[ARG1]

Just you wait til people find out the details about the man who invented the Hindu-Arabic number system (ours); then we'll be in trouble, we'll have to rename all the numbers lest the existing names be seen as honouring the man who chose them!

We live in a world where naming transit lines after colours is seen as problematic in some cities (Seattle). Anything is possible at this point.

 

[mistersg1]

What we call York Region today follows the same concession “grid” for the most part, so the old Township of York, did it have a defined northern boundary at what we now call Steeles?

As Township of Markham having clearly a continuation of York’s concession survey, why in their right mind would they skip 4 whole concessions?

Concessions are a different animal than numbered streets, I like to think of the concessions as being more similar to the Mile Roads in Metro Detroit. In that the roads in question are far apart.