[Undead]

Moving this here before the mods ban hammer us.

You literally said Toronto’s downtown is unlivable. This is objectively wrong.

Street cars stuck in traffic? Check.
Small units? Check.
Noise? Check.
Crowds? Check.
Large renter population which contributes to a state of disrepair/chaos in many buildings? Check.

All of the above are objectively true circumstances that contribute to making downtown unlivable in certain ways.

Anyway, you got your eye roll out at me so I guess we can focus on more on-topic areas.

Hopefully you're done with the childish troll accusation blather. @urbanexplorer

 

[Bayer]

After 34 years downtown (Bay-Church/Bloor-Gerrard), I agree that traffic, noise, and crowds can be hard to tolerate (especially after spending a long time without them during the first year of the pandemic). But this goes for any large city. Many people are happy to live in the suburbs, but I belong here. I would consider it a nightmare to have to use a car daily.

I think the issues we hear about in some buildings are all about management, not the types of occupants. I would tend to blame condo owners who don't want to pay for proper maintenance or who refuse to restrict short-term rentals. I am a renter at Manulife, after renting and owning condos, all of which were managed much less competently by penny-pinching amateurs.

 

[T3G]

I think the noise and crowds are subjective. What works for some might not work for others; some people thrive on the chaos of city life, others can't stand it.

I agree that downtown Toronto is unlivable, but because of specific circumstances that make it so, not because of the nature of big ciies. Subway lines like Yonge are completely unusable in the morning rush hour; the fact that streetcars have to share lanes with mixed traffic makes using them a punishment; the decay of the public realm (anything between Yonge and the DVP between Carlton and Richmond), and the crime levels, while perhaps not as bad as other cities of the same class, nevertheless would turn me off from living downtown. As a European I also don't like how much of the public realm is devoted to cars; as I mentioned in the thread, one of my favourite things about Europe is how basically every city and town of consequence has appreciable quantities of narrow roads or pedestrian only walkways, which make the place extremely welcoming to be in. Toronto has pockets of areas which do this extremely well, like the Harbourfront, but there's just not enough of them. Add in any kind of construction that takes up a portion of the sidewalk and you lose a big chunk of public space. I have never enjoyed downtown as much as during the Raptors Parade and I really wish Toronto did more of this.

This is what I think makes downtown unlivable. Sort this out and I wouldn't balk at the idea of living there. I don't mind noise and crowds, and I think that living in a place where all the action is could only be a good thing.

 

[Northern Light]

I think the noise and crowds are subjective. What works for some might not work for others; some people thrive on the chaos of city life, others can't stand it.

Agreed.

I agree that downtown Toronto is unlivable, but because of specific circumstances that make it so, not because of the nature of big ciies. Subway lines like Yonge are completely unusable in the morning rush hour

I would agree if you're talking SB on Yonge, in the AM, but I would also tend to think if you're already living downtown, there's a good chance you work downtown, or alternatively, that you'd be headed NB on the subway if you did not, which would make it less of an issue.

We'll soon see w/the complete rollout of ATC this fall whether or not there's a bit of breathing room to be had for SB on Yonge in the AM rush.

; the fact that streetcars have to share lanes with mixed traffic makes using them a punishment;

There's lots to improve about streetcars in Toronto, including those that operate in their own ROW; that said, Harbourfront and Spadina do just that.

Also I'm down on King a lot as a pedestrian and I find the road desserted at most hours in most spots (of cars) and the streetcars can move reasonably quickly.

I'd certainly like to see enhanced priority on other routes, and better transit-priority lighting (and fewer stops) on Habourfront and Spadina; but for the most part, low-floor, air conditioned streetcars are pretty frequent downtown and I don't consider it as unlivable as you make it out to be.

the decay of the public realm (anything between Yonge and the DVP between Carlton and Richmond),

Toronto has rarely been a big investor in the public realm; it does need to do more and better; that said, I disagree with term decay here as it implies that its worsening. In fact, I would argue Toronto is already putting more into streetscape downtown than it has in generations and its markedly improved from 20 years ago. More, and healthier trees, more pedestrian lights, more interlocking pavers........

I very much look forward (I hope) to them finally re-doing John Street next year, and of course the big Yonge Street re-do is coming by over the next 3 years.

and the crime levels, while perhaps not as bad as other cities of the same class, nevertheless would turn me off from living downtown.

Toronto's homicide rate is comparable to Amsterdam or Stockholm; and its Major Crime Index (Violent Crime/Robbery) is lower than Paris, France.

Downtown is relatively safe within the context of the City's overall numbers I'm not sure I get the perception that it is not.

Yes, there are panhandlers and others who may cause some measure of discomfort by their presence (tragedy for them more than anyone else); but I don't see a broad-based safety issue.

As a European I also don't like how much of the public realm is devoted to cars

I agree, though this is changing. Toronto has cut lane capacity in downtown drastically over the last decade.

Car lanes were removed on Bloor, Wellesley, Shuter, University, Wellington (partial, more to come), Queen's Quay, Sherbourne, Adelaide and Richmond and more.

Over the next 3-5 years, I expect you will see 2 lanes shaved off most of Yonge, and the same for Queen's Park Crescent and Avenue Road, and a couple of more as well, based on discussions w/City staff.

; as I mentioned in the thread, one of my favourite things about Europe is how basically every city and town of consequence has appreciable quantities of narrow roads or pedestrian only walkways, which make the place extremely welcoming to be in.

I agree.

I adore Vienna for this in particular.

 

[afransen]

Major Crime Index (Violent Crime/Robbery) is lower than Paris, France.

Paris did not strike me as the safest/lowest crime city. Outside of some of the tourist areas, I recall walking down a commercial street where all the shops were closed up tight with sturdy metal window coverings etc and abandoned street at like 7 or 8 pm. What I got for choosing to walk to the hotel rather than transfer to another line on the metro. I've gotten the same vibes walking in downtown Columbus at 6 pm (absolute ghost town) and the way businesses shut themselves up sends a message of high expected property crime.

 

[Northern Light]

Paris did not strike me as the safest/lowest crime city. Outside of some of the tourist areas, I recall walking down a commercial street where all the shops were closed up tight with sturdy metal window coverings etc and abandoned street at like 7 or 8 pm. What I got for choosing to walk to the hotel rather than transfer to another line on the metro. I've gotten the same vibes walking in downtown Columbus at 6 pm (absolute ghost town) and the way businesses shut themselves up sends a message of high expected property crime.

I agree; my point being, Europe is not somehow this epitome of safety relative to Toronto.

Some European cities are somewhat safer, but more are comparable, some are worse, a very few are marginally better.

It seems to be a product of perception, more than reality.

 

[Undead]

Yes, Toronto's one of the safest large cities in the world.

 

[T3G]

There's lots to improve about streetcars in Toronto, including those that operate in their own ROW; that said, Harbourfront and Spadina do just that.

Also I'm down on King a lot as a pedestrian and I find the road desserted at most hours in most spots (of cars) and the streetcars can move reasonably quickly.

I'd certainly like to see enhanced priority on other routes, and better transit-priority lighting (and fewer stops) on Habourfront and Spadina; but for the most part, low-floor, air conditioned streetcars and pretty frequent downtown and I don't consider it as unlivable as you make it out to be.

King, Harbourfront, and Spadina are the exceptions. I was thinking lines like the 501, 505, and 506 more so, especially the 501. Admittedly I have not been around the streetcars much since the pandemic broke out, but I remember in pre-pandemic times, in rush hour the route would move so slowly downtown that it would frequently make more sense to just walk, even if you could expect a car to show up within a reasonable timeframe (given the TTC's chronic issues with line management, this was not always the case). Add in the TTC's insistence on kneecapping the already slow operation of their network with various rules like having to stop and inspect each switch before proceeding, and, well...

Toronto has rarely been a big investor in the public realm; it does need to do more and better; that said, I disagree with term decay here as it implies that its worsening. In fact, I would argue Toronto is already putting more into streetscape downtown than it has in generations and its markedly improved from 20 years ago. More, and healthier trees, more pedestrian lights, more interlocking pavers........

Well, I used decay to refer specifically to those areas east of Yonge, rather than to downtown as a whole. My perception is that Yonge and Dundas Square, for example, seems to get worse with every passing year, while the western side of downtown seems to be continuously improving.

Toronto's homicide rate is comparable to Amsterdam or Stockholm; and its Major Crime Index (Violent Crime/Robbery) is lower than Paris, France.

Downtown is relatively safe within the context of the City's overall numbers I'm not sure I get the perception that it is not.

Yes, there are panhandlers and others who make cause some measure of discomfort by their presence (tragedy for them more than anyone else); but I don't see a broad-based safety issue.

Perhaps I should've been more specific in my frame of reference. My hometown is Bratislava, Slovakia, so that is what I use as my frame of reference. By all metrics except for corruption and bribery, Toronto is at least as bad as, if not much worse.

Crime Comparison Between Toronto, Canada And Bratislava, Slovakia. Safety Comparison.

www.numbeo.com

Maybe that's an unfair comparison, as Bratislava is a much smaller city than Toronto. However, Toronto doesn't hold up very well when compared to a much larger city like Prague, either.

Crime Comparison Between Toronto, Canada And Prague, Czech Republic. Safety Comparison.

www.numbeo.com

I have never been to western Europe so I can't reasonably comment on the comparisons between the two. And I guess singling out downtown isn't fair on my end, either, since my biggest issue with Toronto, the TTC, doesn't seem to discriminate between borough boundaries. I used to be a frequent rider of the TTC pre-pandemic and never thought twice about it, but it feels like the number of violent attacks that have been reported on it this year specifically are way out of control. If I can do so, I avoid the TTC, and I think they have a significant PR struggle ahead of them if they want to retain riders who can choose to get around otherwise.

 

[Northern Light]

Perhaps I should've been more specific in my frame of reference. My hometown is Bratislava, Slovakia, so that is what I use as my frame of reference. By all metrics except for corruption and bribery, Toronto is at least as bad as, if not much worse.

Crime Comparison Between Toronto, Canada And Bratislava, Slovakia. Safety Comparison.

www.numbeo.com

Maybe that's an unfair comparison, as Bratislava is a much smaller city than Toronto. However, Toronto doesn't hold up very well when compared to a much larger city like Prague, either.

Crime Comparison Between Toronto, Canada And Prague, Czech Republic. Safety Comparison.

www.numbeo.com

Prague is an exceptionally safe city.

That said, its still rather small to be considered a fair comparator (metro population ~ 1.5M)

If you look at indexes for safest major city in the world, Prague isn't listed on most (any?) of them, because its too small to be considered.

Lets keep in mind, any such list as with all internet lists is subjective to some degree, because it depends on what factors you weigh, and how much weight you give to each.

If you rank corruption in a list vs including something a car accident serious injury/fatality rate in such a stat. Homicide rates, I think are among the fairest indicators, but are often available only at the national level, outside of North America.

All that said, here's World Population Review's list; with my notation that its ranking of Toronto similar +/- a couple of spots either way to most other such lists:

* Worth saying, DC saw 227 homicides in 2021which gives them a homicide rate per 100,000 of ~32 which is more than 10x as high as Toronto.

I put that out there to shore how stats can mislead.

This is the list from The Economist; note that the overall score combines things like Health and Infrastructure as well as Crime (personal security in their parlance); it ranks Toronto #2 overall, but #8 in the personal security category:

Again, Prague was not ranked at all.

 

[T3G]

Honestly, I find it really shocking that cities like Copenhagen or Amsterdam, make the list when Prague, which has a bigger population than either, doesn't. But I guess if the discussion is around metro population rather than pure city population, it makes sense.

 

[Jonny5]

unlivable in certain ways.

This sounds like that old complaint about the popular restaurant: "no one goes there anymore because it's always so busy!"