News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 8.4K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 39K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 4.7K     0 

ssiguy2

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Messages
3,727
Reaction score
1,772
We all {myself included} are constantly bitching about TC or transit in general. It is always easy to say what we want but is another to say what you would do with the $8.15 billion that Metrolinx is going to be doing for Toronto transit by 2020.
Not including York's VIVA, the cost breaks down like this: Eglinton Jane to Kennedy $4.6 billion, SRT extesion to Sheppard $1.4 billion, Finch LRT Spadina line to Humber College $1.2 billion, and Sheppard LRT from Don Mills to just shy of Morningside $.95 billion. All costs are in escalated dollars to 2020.
That is the budget for Toronto over the next decade and assuming no more or less funds what exactly would you do?
Let's not get into why someone else plan won't work but rather if you were in Metrolinx's shoes what would you present as your transit plan.
Complaining is so easy and we all do it exceptionally well but setting priorities and being responsible to all the tax payers and citizens of the city is quite another. If you had to face the whole city and tell them this is the best plan then what would you do? We all have wonderful plans but having to present them to the electorate and tax payers is quite another matter................it's not as easy as just putting lines on a map. Life is a lot more complicated when you are forced to live in some one else's shoes. Bitching is easy but proposing alternatives and defending your proposal is a lot more stressful.
So you can present your plan and explain it if you like but no negative commenting on another person. You can make your case but not by be putting down another persons's idea.
 
With the initial $8.5B:
Priority 1: SRT Replacement - Green Line extension from Kennedy to SCC.
Priority 2: DRL - Orange Line from King and Spadina to Don Mills via Pape and Overlea. Reach as far north as the funds permit on Don Mills aiming for Don Mills and Finch.

With the additional rounds of funds:
Priority 1: DRL - Extension west to Humber Loop and north to Don Mills and Finch.
Priority 2: Eglinton LRT - Pearson to Eglinton @ Kingston Road via Dixon, Martin Grove, Eglinton.
Priority 3: Sheppard LRT - Convert the Sheppard subway to a Sheppard LRT running Downsview to Malvern via Sheppard, Brimley, and the currently planned LRT route from SCC to Malvern. With subway transfers at Downsview, Yonge, Don Mills, and SCC it really seems unlikely anything more than LRT level capacity would be required.
Priority 4: Finch West LRT - Create the Finch LRT from Pearon to Yonge @ Finch via Woodbine Live, Humber College, Finch.
Priority 5: Yonge Line - Yellow line extension to Richmond Hill Centre
Priority 6: Kingston Rd BRT - Victoria Park station to UofTS.
Priority 7: Kipling BRT - Kipling @ Steeles to Humber Loop via Kipling and Queensway.
Priority 8: Durham BRT from SCC to Pickering via 401, Morningside, Military Trail, Kingston Rd.
 
Last edited:
I think Monorail would work very well in Toronto especially down rail ROW and down roads that are essentially commercial or industrial. I, unfortunately, know that it will never be given the true consideration it deserves so it is not in my plan.
Here is what I would do................completely cancel Finch. It may be well used but there are more important areas that have greater need and attention. I would continue Sheppard LRT to Agincourt GO and then take it south to merge into an LRT from Kennedy to interline to STC. I would have the stations be 100 metres which is enough to accomadate 3 new TC LRT cars. The Sheppard LRT would only have 3 stops between Don Mills and GO and all other crossings would use under/overpasses. I would ditch the SRT and convert to LRT but no extension past it's current McCowen. The transfer of SRT to LRT wouldn't be very expensive as it is only the track that has to be replaced so it will not require any land purchase , replacment of any underground infastructure and the stations are built. Only the track and overhead power line will be require. I would also at the same time extend the current SRT stations to 100 metres and fix that damn mess of a transfer at Kennedy. The savings on Sheppard I would have to say are nil. It's still an 8 km journey to STC and will require more expensive underpasses and rail along GO and the transfer of ICTS track over to convention rail and station expansions to 100 metres. Just to be one the very safe side I will ADD 100 million onto the Sheppard to STC LRT. Where the real savings will come in is transferring STC to LRT and interline with Sheppard LRT. That's only about 5km of new track transfer from ICTS to LRT. At $50 million at most for new track and $100 million to fix Kennedy station.
Although I am allowing an extra $100 million for Sheppard to STC LRT, the Kennedy to STC LRT would come in at $350 million. At $1.4 billion that represents a combined savings of $950 million.
What would I do with $950 million? First I'd visit Egypt and Peru and then use those funds for an extended and improved Eglinton LRT but make it a real cross town route. That means going from Eglinton GO all the way past Jane to Kipling. I would have stops averaging 1.3 km and would tunnel only from Bayview to Dufferin and I would ditch Avenue Road station. The savings of not having to tunnel as far and one fewer underground station is big money. I figure it will result in about 3 km less tunneling that Metrolinx is proposing and fewer underground stations. I am going to be VERY generous and say that's only a savings of $500 million. Take that cool half billion and extend the line 3km to the east and 8 to the west. I am allowing $100 million per km as all light's will have underpasses which is more expensive with some savings from not having to build as many stops and new lights. I would use $300 million for contingensy and make sure that at Kipling/Eglinton it first heads north to Kipling/Dixon and finishes there.
Well that has left me with a total savings so far of $650 million. Let me see.........................well after my trip to Turkey and Spain I would put that $650 million and take my saved funds from cancelling the $1.2 billion Finch Line and start a much needed DRL. Although I would prefer a Queen Street tunnel the funds may not be there and as a member of Metrolinx I must get the most bang for the buck.
I would take that tidy $1.85 billion and using the rail ROW go from Union to Coxwell. It would have 120 metre stations and be very cost effective due to almost no tunneling due to the existing rail ROW. Interesting that in the most congested, most expensive, and highest density of the city will actually have a relatively low cost per km for rapid transit. I would use the rail ROW to Coxwell and then go underground to the Don Valley and then head at grade with underpasses as far as she could go within the $1.85 billion budget There would be no at grade stations between Union and Coxwell.. Notice how I have stated Coxwell and not Pape. I feel Coxwell would serve more people in East Toronto, offer a DLR, and be a direct northbound route to Don Mills Road via Toronto East GH.
Voila............................that's my plan.
 
Please note that the initial budget is $8.15 billion NOT $8.5 billion. Could you put estimates on your ideas and which lines or extensions would you be willing to sacrifice for your needed $350 million cost savings to fit into the Metrolinx budget? Thanks.
 
1. Danforth subway to Scarborough Centre ($1.5B)
- replacing the Scarborough RT
- cancellation of 131E

2. Bloor subway to East Mall ($0.5B)
- regional TTC/MT/GO terminal
- future Dundas LRT connection
- removal of MT/TTC buses: 1+, 11+, 17, 27, 35+, 50, 57, 70, 74, 82+, 89, 101, 109, 111+, 112+, 123+, 191+, 192, 201

3. Eglinton West Subway from Eglinton West to Renforth ($3.0B)
- Mississauga/GO BRT/Transitway regional connection
- removal of TTC/MT buses: 17, 27, 32, 35, 50, 57, 89, 109

4. DRL from Union to Danforth ($1.8B)
- relief to allow ridership growth and extension of Sheppard subway and other new subway/LRT lines

5. Sheppard East to Victoria Park ($0.7B)
- increase length of Sheppard subway
- removal of TTC buses: 24A, 85+, 123+, 167+, 169+, 190, 224+

6. Yonge Subway to Steeles ($0.7B)
- removal of TTC/YRT/VIVA buses: 2, 5, 23, 42+, 53+, 60+, 77, 88+, 91+, 125, 300, 301, 302, 303, Viva Blue, Viva Pink
 
Last edited:
Why has nobody mentioned GO transit improvements?

Brampton is already in the bag. 30 minute off-peak headways on that line please.

Same with Milton (to somewhere in Mississauga), Barrie (to newmarket), and Stouffville (to Unionville).Also increase service on lakeshore E&W. All day train service to Hamilton. All these lines must add a station at Eglinton Avenue if possible.

Then, Eglinton LRT.
 
Last edited:
This thread essentially the same as last year's Alternatives to Transit City.

The problem many of these proposals is that the plans posted here all seem to be based on the goal of "how can we move the largest number of people downtown for any given amount of money." Getting people downtown is important, but isn't the top issue in the city.

For Miller and Giambrone the top concern for the future of the city is the fate of the declining inner suburbs. Specifically Malvern, Jane/Finch and Rexdale. Transit City sends lines, in some cases multiple lines, to all these areas. There are certainly routes that would get more riders, but areas like Southern Etobicoke and Riverdale are doing fine and don't need urgent intervention. The map below makes it pretty clear why Shepperd East and Finch West are such priorities.

20090316Hulchanski.jpg


The next priority is to build livable neighbourhoods. Ones that are walkable, mixed-use, and free of crime. The ideal is for people not to have to go downtown for their work and their shopping. The Avenues Plan hopes that streets like Eglinton and Sheppard will become more like Queen or St Clair. In the past neighbourhoods like this have almost always developed around streetcars, not subways. This was another impetus to Transit City.
 
The map below makes it pretty clear why Shepperd East and Finch West are such priorities.

20090316Hulchanski.jpg
I don't disagree with you ... it's interesting to note, that to some extent, the areas shown in Red (i.e. Scarborough) correspond to the areas where ridership significantly fell during the last year on the Subway/LRT.

Good post, in an otherwise unreadable thread!
 
This topic annoys me, because we have heard and seen many times what we think. So I won't even bother to waste my time repeating what I would like to see.



The next priority is to build livable neighbourhoods. Ones that are walkable, mixed-use, and free of crime. The ideal is for people not to have to go downtown for their work and their shopping. The Avenues Plan hopes that streets like Eglinton and Sheppard will become more like Queen or St Clair. In the past neighbourhoods like this have almost always developed around streetcars, not subways. This was another impetus to Transit City.

Most development along yonge came with coordination of rapid transit and development. It had nothing to do with the streetcar, but with coordination of development. Hence throw the stupid street-car myth out. Development in Toronto is one of the classic examples of development around the subway, NOT the streetcar. Stop lying and get your facts correct. We were a showcase example for the world on how development can be integrated with the subway - and our system was expanding very fast.
Then came the 1980s and it all went wrong.
 
The problem many of these proposals is that the plans posted here all seem to be based on the goal of "how can we move the largest number of people downtown for any given amount of money." Getting people downtown is important, but isn't the top issue in the city.

For Miller and Giambrone the top concern for the future of the city is the fate of the declining inner suburbs. Specifically Malvern, Jane/Finch and Rexdale. Transit City sends lines, in some cases multiple lines, to all these areas. There are certainly routes that would get more riders, but areas like Southern Etobicoke and Riverdale are doing fine and don't need urgent intervention. The map below makes it pretty clear why Shepperd East and Finch West are such priorities.

The next priority is to build livable neighbourhoods. Ones that are walkable, mixed-use, and free of crime. The ideal is for people not to have to go downtown for their work and their shopping. The Avenues Plan hopes that streets like Eglinton and Sheppard will become more like Queen or St Clair. In the past neighbourhoods like this have almost always developed around streetcars, not subways. This was another impetus to Transit City.
But LRT won't work if our transit network doesn't. We need a backbone subway network before we start putting LRT off throughout the suburbs. High density development can occur on those big routes, and then in 15 years, that density in those areas can run off along avenues. TC is skipping a vital step in the development of the city and of our transit network. We have a very basic subway network, but it's not quite a strong network for the city even as it is, let alone if it's going to be experiencing a lot of growth through the revitalization that TC promises. It won't have the capacity, even with the DRL, and it won't have the speed needed to make transit the preferable option for the entire city.
 
Integrate the fair system with a new GO Local service which would be separate from the Express service to 905. And add new stations to the GO in the 416 but add sidetracks along with the new stations to not slow down the commuter rail services.

Have this local service go from the airport to Union at TTC prices of course and with the additional stations.

Eliminate the SRT and have that stretch served by the new GO Local service and a branch to go to Scarborough Centre and the proposed SRT extension route be covered by it also.

Extend Sheppard west to Downsview and east to Agincourt GO Station, and the SCC express bus can leave from there.
 
With the initial $8.5B:
Priority 1: SRT Replacement - Green Line extension from Kennedy to SCC.
Priority 2: DRL - Orange Line from King and Spadina to Don Mills via Pape and Overlea. Reach as far north as the funds permit on Don Mills aiming for Don Mills and Finch.

With the additional rounds of funds:
Priority 1: DRL - Extension west to Humber Loop and north to Don Mills and Finch.
Priority 2: Eglinton LRT - Pearson to Eglinton @ Kingston Road via Dixon, Martin Grove, Eglinton.
Priority 3: Sheppard LRT - Convert the Sheppard subway to a Sheppard LRT running Downsview to Malvern via Sheppard, Brimley, and the currently planned LRT route from SCC to Malvern. With subway transfers at Downsview, Yonge, Don Mills, and SCC it really seems unlikely anything more than LRT level capacity would be required.
Priority 4: Finch West LRT - Create the Finch LRT from Pearon to Yonge @ Finch via Woodbine Live, Humber College, Finch.
Priority 5: Yonge Line - Yellow line extension to Richmond Hill Centre
Priority 6: Kingston Rd BRT - Victoria Park station to UofTS.
Priority 7: Kipling BRT - Kipling @ Steeles to Humber Loop via Kipling and Queensway.
Priority 8: Durham BRT from SCC to Pickering via 401, Morningside, Military Trail, Kingston Rd.

Your plan is pretty much my personal ideal with some exceptions.

I actually think Kingston should be LRT. Every single time I drive on that road, I am blown away by how much potential this corridor has. And BRT won't really bring out any of it.

Also if you are converting Sheppard to LRT, then having LRT on Kingston makes sense since you could have a spur from Sheppard to UTSC as well (making the campus a hub/transfer point). If Sheppard was converted I would have 2 spurs: Morningside to UTSC and McCowan to STC. All branches would start at Downsview and run in 15 min intervals, effectively given 5 min headways from Downsview to McCowan.

I would also build a Progress LRT from STC to Malvern using Progress and the old rail corridor. None of this 4 car grade separated overpriced BS. Straight centre of the street ROW with 2 cars only.
 
This topic annoys me, because we have heard and seen many times what we think. So I won't even bother to waste my time repeating what I would like to see.





Most development along yonge came with coordination of rapid transit and development. It had nothing to do with the streetcar, but with coordination of development. Hence throw the stupid street-car myth out. Development in Toronto is one of the classic examples of development around the subway, NOT the streetcar. Stop lying and get your facts correct. We were a showcase example for the world on how development can be integrated with the subway - and our system was expanding very fast.
Then came the 1980s and it all went wrong.

You are making the claim that Yonge Street was undeveloped until the subway was built in the 1950s. Just wanted to point that out.
 
This thread essentially the same as last year's Alternatives to Transit City.

The problem many of these proposals is that the plans posted here all seem to be based on the goal of "how can we move the largest number of people downtown for any given amount of money." Getting people downtown is important, but isn't the top issue in the city.

For Miller and Giambrone the top concern for the future of the city is the fate of the declining inner suburbs. Specifically Malvern, Jane/Finch and Rexdale. Transit City sends lines, in some cases multiple lines, to all these areas. There are certainly routes that would get more riders, but areas like Southern Etobicoke and Riverdale are doing fine and don't need urgent intervention. The map below makes it pretty clear why Shepperd East and Finch West are such priorities.

20090316Hulchanski.jpg


The next priority is to build livable neighbourhoods. Ones that are walkable, mixed-use, and free of crime. The ideal is for people not to have to go downtown for their work and their shopping. The Avenues Plan hopes that streets like Eglinton and Sheppard will become more like Queen or St Clair. In the past neighbourhoods like this have almost always developed around streetcars, not subways. This was another impetus to Transit City.

I would posit that the reason they aren't as well off is because they are in the dead zone between TTC and GO with respect to connections downtown. By offering better connections to the core, you are in effect bring these places closer to downtown and in turn improving prospects for employment, access to services, etc.

Miller/Giambrone seem to think that merely providing transit inside those boroughs will somehow cure all the socio-economic issues that are there. I can't see it. The jobs are mostly downtown. And for the forseeable future, the best prospects somebody will have will depend on their access to the core. I really don't see how simply improve travel times inside the borough itself is suddenly going to spur an employment boom that dramatically improves the socio-economics prospects of these citizens.
 

Back
Top