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W. K. Lis

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Since Presto is to be a revenue source for the TTC and GO, here's a video on The Tube - Revenue (a BBC series):

[video=youtube;_ylEBmOeOR4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ylEBmOeOR4[/video]
 

RedRocket191

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You might get it for GO, but all the other systems are tap-on only, so you'll only see someone tap on a single bus, not the 3 subway trains, and bus they took afterwards (in an extreme example).

You're right - we will have it for GO, but we'll have some new data from 905 transit too: PRESTO can show where you boarded, what bus you used and which direction you went. If you transfer, we'll know where you made the transfer and what direction you went it. Manually counting passengers lets us know how many people board where, but not where they make transfers and which direction they go in. This data could reveal that there's enough people going from Meadowvale -> Square One -> Subway to justify direct service from Meadowvale to Kipling, for example.

As you point out, this doesn't work on systems like the TTC when there's the ability to transfer between routes without going through fare controls.

If I had my way we would have to tap in and tap out every time we transferred. This would give us an excellent set of data on par with what GO will have.

Debating the merits of forcing local bus riders to tap out when they've never had to before is probably a conversation for another thread, but this sort of setup is what Vancouver plans to do for their smart card so the idea is not without precedent.
 

nfitz

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If I had my way we would have to tap in and tap out every time we transferred. This would give us an excellent set of data on par with what GO will have.
That would slow down loading and unloading of vehicles in subway stations though - particularly when everyone has to stand there while the person can't tap for some reason.

Debating the merits of forcing local bus riders to tap out when they've never had to before is probably a conversation for another thread, but this sort of setup is what Vancouver plans to do for their smart card so the idea is not without precedent.
Are they? That will be interesting watching everyone trying to tap out of a full bus at the end of the line.

Is there any major system where you currently have to tap in and out of buses for every transfer? Even London is only in - and often you buy your ticket before you get on the bus.
 

APTA-2048

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Is there any major system where you currently have to tap in and out of buses for every transfer? Even London is only in - and often you buy your ticket before you get on the bus.
You do on the GO Bus.

You're right - we will have it for GO, but we'll have some new data from 905 transit too: PRESTO can show where you boarded, what bus you used and which direction you went. If you transfer, we'll know where you made the transfer and what direction you went it. Manually counting passengers lets us know how many people board where, but not where they make transfers and which direction they go in. This data could reveal that there's enough people going from Meadowvale -> Square One -> Subway to justify direct service from Meadowvale to Kipling, for example.

Is the office's information more acurate than the website transaction history? Many of those locations are incorrect.
 

unimaginative2

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The tap-off issue on buses isn't really as serious as it could be since the floods of people exiting the bus usually happen at subway stations, where a tap off wouldn't be necessary since people would be in the fare paid area and could tap out as they left the station turnstiles either there or at their final destination.
 

nfitz

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The tap-off issue on buses isn't really as serious as it could be since the floods of people exiting the bus usually happen at subway stations, where a tap off wouldn't be necessary since people would be in the fare paid area and could tap out as they left the station turnstiles either there or at their final destination.
If you want the data though, you'd then have people tap off from the bus to the subway, and tap on to the subway (or perhaps simply tap out of the subway station, so if they enter the fare controlled area, you'll know because they didn't tap out of the station). Of course then it would also get confusing, as you'd only tap out at some stops, but not others. Personally, I can't tell if the bus pulls into the station, if it's fare-controlled or not ... when the Jane bus pulls into the TTC bay at Jane station, it isn't fare controlled, but when the Pape bus pulls into the TTC bay at Pape station it is fare controlled.

Though I think the whole thing would be just daft, unless you've created a fare-by-distance scheme. One of TTC's big successes is the simplicity of it's bus/subway interactions, and how simple they are.
 

ShonTron

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I would imagine the data collected from tap-ons alone would be valuable. Given that som many local transit trips are round-trips, and that Presto cards individually identifiable, that would be more than sufficient when added to existing methods of collecting data, such as TTS.

I'm moving this over to the Presto thread, this has nothing to do with GO service anymore.
 

nfitz

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I would imagine the data collected from tap-ons alone would be valuable. Given that som many local transit trips are round-trips, and that Presto cards individually identifiable, that would be more than sufficient when added to existing methods of collecting data, such as TTS.
I'd agree. Most trips would be 2-way, so you can assume if someone is getting on the bus at the corner of Peter and Paul every AM, they are probably getting off at the corner of Peter and Paul every PM. The combination of Presto data, rider counts, and the occasional Origin-Destination survey should provide much more extensive data than TTC has ever had to play with before.
 

CDL.TO

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Full tap on and tap off data would be fantastic, but I still think it's hardly necessary for informed transit planning.

I agree with Shon and nfitz. The great majority of transit trips are two-way, you can discover a lot by looking at both AM and PM tap-on locations.
 

rbt

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Full tap on and tap off data would be fantastic, but I still think it's hardly necessary for informed transit planning.

Just the address the Presto card is registered to and the actual stop the person uses could show a large amount of information about how far a person will walk relative to frequency of service, how far a person is being driven to reach the kiss-and-ride, etc.
 

Woodbridge_Heights

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Brain is spinning now lol. Theoretically, we can manufacture tap on/tap off data points for the majority of trips; simply by matching up the morning commute with the evening commute to the card ID. For example say card #xxx boards the Finch W bus at Jane in the morning, we have no idea where this card goes (lets assume the rider travels to Finch W station, transfers to the Yonge subway and gets off at King). In the evening we have card #xxx tapping on at King station. Say this rider has a pattern of doing this M-F. We now have origin and destination points for this particular rider and given the network we can make an educated guess at the route that rider takes. Sure it's no better that O/D surveys, but it's far more accurate and creates far more data to mine than pen and paper surveys.
 

Jonny5

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So my PRESTO card stopped working. I went to the Union GO Customer Service Counter and they confirmed it was not working and said that I had to call PRESTO to have it replaced. They also loudly and belligerently said I "must have damaged it". It was 11:30pm and I didn't feel like arguing after a 70 minute train ride, so I just let that be. I had my card replaced once before via the website when I had actually lost it and the process was quick and painless, so I decided to do the same thing again.

That was 8 weeks ago. I am still waiting for my replacement card to come.

I have called customer service twice already. The first time was two weeks after requesting the replacement. The agent I spoke to said GO should have issued me a new card on the spot instead of telling me to call customer service, but a new card was already on its way in the mail. Two weeks after that without receiving it, I called again. This time the agent said the card had just been put in the mail that day. That was also after about 20 minutes of the agent trying to call it up on "this dumb computer" and sounding completely clueless.

I am now on hold for my third attempt at sorting this out, however, due to higher than normal call volumes, all their representatives are currently busy. My estimated wait time is 40 minutes...

PRESTO customer service is total garbage.

EDIT: Interesting tidbit I have figured out: PRESTO claims I only asked for a new card earlier this month, but it was actually at the beginning of April. However, when I reported it missing I had a pending cash load via credit card on to my old PRESTO card. It took one month for that cash load to cancel itself and refund back to my credit card. The day that refund happened is the exact day the customer service agents see me asking for a new card on their system. It looks like this is a design flaw they need to work out.
 
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gweed123

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An update on the Presto rollout in Ottawa: OC Transpo seems to be going full speed ahead with this. They have Presto bus wraps, it seems like every 4th or 5th shelter has a Presto ad in it, and they even have students riding buses and at major transit stations going person to person explaining Presto, and answering any questions people have.

I've listened to a few conversations on the bus that these students have had with people. A lot of the people seemed skeptical at first, but when it was explained to them, a lot of them seemed a lot more comfortable with it at the end of the conversation.

It'll be interesting to see how many cards are sold in the next couple months. Apparently OC Transpo is setting up booths at major malls to have people sign up, and even going to some seniors' homes to get them registered, because some of them have limited mobility.
 

kEiThZ

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An update on the Presto rollout in Ottawa: OC Transpo seems to be going full speed ahead with this. They have Presto bus wraps, it seems like every 4th or 5th shelter has a Presto ad in it, and they even have students riding buses and at major transit stations going person to person explaining Presto, and answering any questions people have.

I've listened to a few conversations on the bus that these students have had with people. A lot of the people seemed skeptical at first, but when it was explained to them, a lot of them seemed a lot more comfortable with it at the end of the conversation.

It'll be interesting to see how many cards are sold in the next couple months. Apparently OC Transpo is setting up booths at major malls to have people sign up, and even going to some seniors' homes to get them registered, because some of them have limited mobility.

One really interesting selling point that they use (which I think works with the average Joe) is that Presto will help with data collection to let the system know where demand is. This seems to resonate with a lot of people.

Most concerns I've heard is with how it will work with STO buses and how much it will cost.

One big selling point is the free cards. 200 000 free cards will cover a huge chunk of the transit riding public. I plan on getting one...though I moving to TO shortly after.
 

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