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ARG1

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Good for Montreal on it's new fare integration.
The "zone" system is by far the best of all options. It is equitable, makes sense to the general public, and doesn't require a math degree to figure out your fare.
I'm not sure I'd call zone system equitable. Does it makes sense that someone can travel from Pointe-aux-trembles to McGill for cheaper than someone who just takes the Metro under the river from Cartier to Henri-Bourassa? No not really...

For a Zone system to be "equitable", I feel you need to at least have a base 2 zone fare system, so you don't have to deal with paying extra just for being at a zonal border.
 

Xav

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I'm not sure I'd call zone system equitable. Does it makes sense that someone can travel from Pointe-aux-trembles to McGill for cheaper than someone who just takes the Metro under the river from Cartier to Henri-Bourassa? No not really...

For a Zone system to be "equitable", I feel you need to at least have a base 2 zone fare system, so you don't have to deal with paying extra just for being at a zonal border.
Be careful though. The "losers" here are people who live within walking distance from a metro station in Laval and Longueuil, because they face a steep increase in price, but that's not many people compared to the rest of the metropolitan area. Most people in the suburbs actually have a much more equitable fare scheme now.

As with everything, there will always be a negative externality, that doesn't mean the plan as a whole is not better.
 

felix123

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I wouldn't say most extensive. It may not be super frequent, but the regular GO services + UP Express have real value, as do the streetcars even if they aren't full rapid transit. The Metro is great but Montreal needs far more. That being said the REM could very well get a number of extensions after it opens if its seen as a success which I am sure it will be. Look at how much SkyTrain Vancouver built over the years, REM lines could be similarly quick to build as phase 1 has shown us.
Yes, despite Mtl's network flaws, it will be the most extensive RT network in Canada, probably for a long time.
GO is improving but is still commuter rail, and the streetcar is a non-starter - I don't think it could possibly get any less rapid.
UP has a lot of potential, for sure.
As you say, these services have value, but I was only talking about RT network size, not value.

With the completion of REM A, Montreal's rapid transit network will be 136 km, 94 stations.
Vancouver is at be 80km, 53 stations (increasing in 2025).
Toronto is at 77 km, 75 stations (increasing in 2030).
 

ARG1

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Yes, despite Mtl's network flaws, it will be the most extensive RT network in Canada, probably for a long time.
GO is improving but is still commuter rail, and the streetcar is a non-starter - I don't think it could possibly get any less rapid.
UP has a lot of potential, for sure.
As you say, these services have value, but I was only talking about RT network size, not value.

With the completion of REM A, Montreal's rapid transit network will be 136 km, 94 stations.
Vancouver is at be 80km, 53 stations (increasing in 2025).
Toronto is at 77 km, 75 stations (increasing in 2030).
I agree with this for the most part, but saying that GO will only just be "commuter rail" is a massive understatement. Even with the likelihood of it using electric locomotives, it will basically be like we built 5 new metro lines for the region, and if some of the the things we heard from DB to be true, it might not be 15 min headways, but something closer to 7 or maybe even 5 in some areas. The only real difference between GO 8 years from now and the REM is that the former is technically mainline rail, whilst the latter is a fully automated metro running much smaller trains at tighter headways. Other than that though they'll effectively be the same in terms what they bring to the regional transit network, only the former is significantly larger and scope and size. The only thing that GO would really need to solve is fare integration.
 

felix123

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I agree with this for the most part, but saying that GO will only just be "commuter rail" is a massive understatement. Even with the likelihood of it using electric locomotives, it will basically be like we built 5 new metro lines for the region, and if some of the the things we heard from DB to be true, it might not be 15 min headways, but something closer to 7 or maybe even 5 in some areas. The only real difference between GO 8 years from now and the REM is that the former is technically mainline rail, whilst the latter is a fully automated metro running much smaller trains at tighter headways. Other than that though they'll effectively be the same in terms what they bring to the regional transit network, only the former is significantly larger and scope and size. The only thing that GO would really need to solve is fare integration.
GO is going to be huge for the GTA. I did not say that it won't be. But yes, it is commuter rail today. And it will be that way for a few years more.
Again, I am only referring to RT here. That doesn't take away from GO's value.

I am also hyped for GO RER, but I just don't see how it's going to become an S-Bahn with how many stations are in enormous parking lots, far afield of town centres.
I also think the piecemeal approach of the GO expansion to date will continue. Lakeshore will improve first, then the other lines, and unless GO differentiates Milton/RH from the rest of the network, it will take some time before GO is perceived as an integrated part of Toronto's RT.
 

ARG1

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I am also hyped for GO RER, but I just don't see how it's going to become an S-Bahn with how many stations are in enormous parking lots, far afield of town centres.
This isn't true. Part of the goal with TOCs is that GO Stations will themselves become Town centres, and this is already visible at stations like Maple, Burlington, and many stations within Toronto. Even if this was true, RT is the strongest not when it serves built up town centres but when it's served by strong connecting bus services. What makes subway lines like YUS so popular isn't the fact that it's dense around the stations, but the fact that Toronto has amazing bus services that feed into the individual stations. In theory the same will apply to GO (assuming regions like York actually finally get decent bus services), where even some stations are middle of nowhere parking lots, a good chunk of ridership could be integrated with strong bus service that feeds into the lines.
I also think the piecemeal approach of the GO expansion to date will continue. Lakeshore will improve first, then the other lines, and unless GO differentiates Milton/RH from the rest of the network, it will take some time before GO is perceived as an integrated part of Toronto's RT.
This isn't true at all. GO will be perceived as an integrated part of Toronto's RT as soon as frequencies increase where it can be perceived as RT, and that should happen really soon. By the end of this year or early next year we should already see the major GO lines at 2tph, and as soon as we hit 4tph it should easily be at a stage where it's a major integrated part of Toronto's RT. We already see this today with the Lakeshore Lines and pre-COVID UP Express. 4tph will also probably happen around the same time that the REM fully opens.
 

nfitz

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Toronto is at 77 km, 75 stations (increasing in 2030).
12 new stations on Line 5 are opening in 2023 (officially they are still down for late 2022, but that seems to be the handover date to TTC, not the operational date for service).

Yes, despite Mtl's network flaws, it will be the most extensive RT network in Canada, probably for a long time.
Gets into what's RT. Looks like you've included Toronto SRT, and Montreal LRT but not Toronto LRT or BRT!

I'd been treating the Deux-Montagnes branch as RT when riding it since even before the 1990s upgrade (though I never got off the island on it). That they are adding 12 new stations with REM (and one in the 1990s) doesn't change that.

When does GO Lakeshore become RT? And why not include UP - which had a better minimum frequency than some Skytrain stations in Vancouver!
 

felix123

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12 new stations on Line 5 are opening in 2023 (officially they are still down for late 2022, but that seems to be the handover date to TTC, not the operational date for service).
Line 5 is not RT. If the at-grade portion is separated from the underground portion, then the service would function as a metro and in that case we would add those 12 stations to TTC's RT total.
Gets into what's RT. Looks like you've included Toronto SRT, and Montreal LRT but not Toronto LRT or BRT!
REM and SRT are RT, so I included them. Line 5/Line 6 LRT are not RT.
This isn't true. Part of the goal with TOCs is that GO Stations will themselves become Town centres, and this is already visible at stations like Maple, Burlington, and many stations within Toronto. Even if this was true, RT is the strongest not when it serves built up town centres but when it's served by strong connecting bus services. What makes subway lines like YUS so popular isn't the fact that it's dense around the stations, but the fact that Toronto has amazing bus services that feed into the individual stations. In theory the same will apply to GO (assuming regions like York actually finally get decent bus services), where even some stations are middle of nowhere parking lots, a good chunk of ridership could be integrated with strong bus service that feeds into the lines.
If I want to go to Burlington, I want to go to Burlington's town centre. Same goes for Mississauga - I'd rather go to Square One via GO rather than to Cooksville. This is simply how it's done with comparable systems (Sydney, Berlin, London, etc).

This isn't true at all. GO will be perceived as an integrated part of Toronto's RT as soon as frequencies increase where it can be perceived as RT, and that should happen really soon. By the end of this year or early next year we should already see the major GO lines at 2tph, and as soon as we hit 4tph it should easily be at a stage where it's a major integrated part of Toronto's RT. We already see this today with the Lakeshore Lines and pre-COVID UP Express. 4tph will also probably happen around the same time that the REM fully opens.
If you are going to state that something isn't true, then your response should be fact, not opinion.
In summary, the definition of RT is narrow and I can see that it bothers some here that Toronto's system will be smaller for the foreseeable future. I would fully agree that with nearly twice the population and significantly higher per-capita wealth, this makes no sense but it's just how it is. GO will still be a game-changer for the region and maybe Toronto will ultimately feel like the more-comprehensive, faster system, making these metrics moot.
 

ARG1

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If I want to go to Burlington, I want to go to Burlington's town centre. Same goes for Mississauga - I'd rather go to Square One via GO rather than to Cooksville. This is simply how it's done with comparable systems (Sydney, Berlin, London, etc).
Well let's see what options we have to fix this:

1) Change the Alignment to divert and serve the existing town center
2) Bring the town center to the GO station.

Guess which option GO is going with?
Sure, Cooksville isn't at Square One, but overtime as Mississauga City Centre densifies, the density will reach Cooksville GO (and relatively soon might I add), and all of a sudden this station you're complaining doesn't go to the town center will suddenly be in the town center. This is how it's always worked. If we look at your examples like Sydney and London, especially for the latter, density and development has always come after the introduction of the railway, not the other way around. Many major railway termini that we take for granted as within the city such as King's Cross or Paddington were initially built in what was farmland outside the city, or at the very least at the outskirts of any form of development.

Also, being unsatisfied with where the train stops doesn't stop doesn't mean that something isn't Rapid Transit, so this whole conversation is pointless anyway.

Finally, I'd like to point out that this exact strategy of making the empty space the train serves into actual places is quite literally the same strategy the CDPQ is using for the REM. Areas like Brossard and Bois-Franc that at the moment aren't really places will become places and town centers in their own right.
If you are going to state that something isn't true, then your response should be fact, not opinion.
Of course my statement is going to be opinion, since what you're stating is opinion as well:
and unless GO differentiates Milton/RH from the rest of the network, it will take some time before GO is perceived as an integrated part of Toronto's RT.
You're telling me this is a fact? This is about as opinionated as it can possibly get. What one "perceives" to be the truth doesn't necessarily mean it is the truth. In my opinion the Lakeshore Lines can already be seen as Rapid Transit, they meet the baseline frequencies required for Rapid Transit, and are certainly more rapid than getting around by even the subway.

In summary, the definition of RT is narrow and I can see that it bothers some here that Toronto's system will be smaller for the foreseeable future. I would fully agree that with nearly twice the population and significantly higher per-capita wealth, this makes no sense but it's just how it is.
This screams to me like projection, like you're implying that the members of this board have an inferiority complex and don't want to believe that a smaller city has better transit. If you want to play that game, I can accuse you of trying to gatekeep the definition of rapid transit to make it seem like Montreal has some upper edge in this game. Of course if you set the definitions, you're obviously going to win. The goal with my last several posts was to show the point that the REM and GO RER really aren't that different of products, and any major differences between them can frankly be marked down as academic differences. They both try to achieve the exact same goals, just with different technology.

And, let's say I choose to play ball and agree to a more favourable definition of rapid transit, and say that to qualify as Rapid Transit you have to have a minimum headway of every 10 minutes, and the rail has to be electrified. Even under these favourable conditions, Montreal only has the upper hand for the best case scenerio of maybe 4 years? That's not a long time to be in first so, take your W I guess?
GO will still be a game-changer for the region and maybe Toronto will ultimately feel like the more-comprehensive, faster system, making these metrics moot.
I am going to be nice and say that this wasn't intentional, and you meant this the whole time. However the way this convo started makes this seem like a retraction.
Yes, despite Mtl's network flaws, it will be the most extensive RT network in Canada, probably for a long time.
GO is improving but is still commuter rail, and the streetcar is a non-starter - I don't think it could possibly get any less rapid.
UP has a lot of potential, for sure.
As you say, these services have value, but I was only talking about RT network size, not value.

With the completion of REM A, Montreal's rapid transit network will be 136 km, 94 stations.
Vancouver is at be 80km, 53 stations (increasing in 2025).
Toronto is at 77 km, 75 stations (increasing in 2030).
This doesn't scream "Go will be a game changer", this screams to me "I don't really consider GO to be relevant for my view of Rapid Transit" to which, sorry that isn't going to fly.

Now I can agree with you that calling Lines 5 and 6 "Rapid Transit" is a bit much. I've been pretty vocal about how both of these lines are basically glorified streetcars so I'm willing to meet with you there. But I'm sorry, if you're not going to include GO with these numbers, you're effectively just making a Metro system comparison chart which is interesting to look at, but isn't exactly relevant to the greater scope of these cities. Let's have a more accurate chart shall we?

By 2028
> Montreal's rapid transit network will be 142km, 99 stations
> Toronto's rapid transit network will be 182km, 97 stations
>Vancouver will be at 86km, 59 stations

I decided to be generous and only include GO stations that are within the City of Toronto itself, but realistically it should encompass much more, considering how services like the REM extend outside the City of Montreal.
 
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officedweller

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By 2028
> Montreal's rapid transit network will be 142km, 99 stations
> Toronto's rapid transit network will be 182km, 97 stations
>Vancouver will be at 86km, 59 stations

I decided to be generous and only include GO stations that are within the City of Toronto itself, but realistically it should encompass much more, considering how services like the REM extend outside the City of Montreal.

The Surrey Langley extension has been officially approved with an opening of late 2028.
That adds 16km and 8 stations, and Capstan Station is currently under construction mid-line in Richmond, so the corrected list is:

> Montreal's rapid transit network will be 142km, 99 stations
> Toronto's rapid transit network will be 182km, 97 stations
> Vancouver will be at 102km, 68 stations



 

ARG1

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The Surrey Langley extension has been officially approved with an opening of late 2028.
That adds 16km and 8 stations, and Capstan Station is currently under construction mid-line in Richmond, so the corrected list is:

> Montreal's rapid transit network will be 142km, 99 stations
> Toronto's rapid transit network will be 182km, 97 stations
> Vancouver will be at 102km, 68 stations



I thought that was opening around 2030, my bad.
 

nfitz

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> Montreal's rapid transit network will be 142km, 99 stations
> Toronto's rapid transit network will be 182km, 97 stations
>Vancouver will be at 86km, 59 stations
Toronto will be a lot more than that. They are already running the Lakeshore line every 15-minutes in peak and mid-day from Aldershot to Oshawa - that alone is 110 km. Once they add weekends (which was supposed to happen pre-Covid) and evenings. (the entire line is almost 200 km, including service to Niagara and the planned extension to Bowmanville - but I don't think they'll be extending that to every 15-minute service (at least part Hamilton) anytime soon.)

With the 15-minute service sections of the other 3 RER lines (Kitchener, Stouffville, Barrie) already under construction, and the promised funding to do the Milton line as well, that's another 160 km. Or 170 km if they can figure out how to get the 15-minute service from Bramalea to Mount Pleasant.

So that's about 270 km of frequent 2-way electrified RER service by about 2030/2032. Plus about 140 km for TTC lines 1 through 6. So about 410 km of rapid transit in a decade's time.

I'll leave the recent 55-km grade-separated extension of the Ontario Line (Line 3) to Steeles/Pearson/Kipling out ... I've no idea the reality and timeframe of that (65-km if they connect it from Kipling to Exhibition) - though I wouldn't be surprised if the construction on some of this is underway by 2030.

Though at that point, Line 5 will have reached Renforth station, connecting to the 18-km grade-separated Mississauga BRT (and while I wouldn't count most GTA BRTs like VIVA as rapid transit, surely the grade-separated ones are - moving faster than the subway!). And the Mississauga BRT (along with 3 RER GO lines) connect with the 20-km Hazel McCallion line which opens in 2024? (2023?) in Mississauga - and surely will be to Brampton by 2030.

There's also the 8-km Line 4 extension to McCowan that should be under construction in that timeframe. And the 3-km Line 5 extension to Pearson. Maybe even the long-promised 6-km Line 6 extension to Yonge and presumably a 3-km Line 6 extension to the future Woodbine Racetrack GO station.

So probably pushing about 470 km by the early 2030s. Maybe even 490 km if the City gets off their butts and builds Line 7. (I haven't heard anything about the 13-km Line 8 - Jane for a while - it seems to have fallen off the radar - so I doubt we'll see that in the early 2030s). Well over 500 km if some of those Ontario Line extensions start construction.

I'm not sure where Montreal gets to, if you include the planned Orange line extension to Bois-Franc, Blue line to Anjou, and second REM line. I'm also unsure what the timeframe is to get to all-day 2-way electrified 15-minute service on parts of the remaining EXO lines. Or what other Metro lines are planned other than the ones they were planning in the early 1980s.
 
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ssiguy2

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First, REM is a subway /Metro in every definition of the word, Eglinton is an LRT.
Second, GO will not be near as successful in Toronto as REM will be in Montreal because GO has no fare integration with the TTC. IOW, Torontonians will continue to avoid it just like they do now. and the TTC seems bound and determined to keep it that way.
GO ridership in Toronto city is not low, it's pathetic. If GO was to disappear tomorrow, 99% of the population wouldn't even notice and even fewer would care.
 

ARG1

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First, REM is a subway /Metro in every definition of the word, Eglinton is an LRT.
Second, GO will not be near as successful in Toronto as REM will be in Montreal because GO has no fare integration with the TTC. IOW, Torontonians will continue to avoid it just like they do now. and the TTC seems bound and determined to keep it that way.
GO ridership in Toronto city is not low, it's pathetic. If GO was to disappear tomorrow, 99% of the population wouldn't even notice and even fewer would care.
First, Fare integration is not necessary for success. If Fare Integration was a prerequisite, then UP Express would have like half the ridership it has now, and Viva Blue would be completely empty.

Second, we probably will have stronger fare integration by then. We have been through this song and dance over and over again, can we stop now?
 

ARG1

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Toronto will be a lot more than that. They are already running the Lakeshore line every 15-minutes in peak and mid-day from Aldershot to Oshawa - that alone is 110 km. Once they add weekends (which was supposed to happen pre-Covid) and evenings. (the entire line is almost 200 km, including service to Niagara and the planned extension to Bowmanville - but I don't think they'll be extending that to every 15-minute service (at least part Hamilton) anytime soon.)

With the 15-minute service sections of the other 3 RER lines (Kitchener, Stouffville, Barrie) already under construction, and the promised funding to do the Milton line as well, that's another 160 km. Or 170 km if they can figure out how to get the 15-minute service from Bramalea to Mount Pleasant.

So that's about 270 km of frequent 2-way electrified RER service by about 2030/2032. Plus about 140 km for TTC lines 1 through 6. So about 410 km of rapid transit in a decade's time.

I'll leave the recent 55-km grade-separated extension of the Ontario Line (Line 3) to Steeles/Pearson/Kipling out ... I've no idea the reality and timeframe of that (65-km if they connect it from Kipling to Exhibition) - though I wouldn't be surprised if the construction on some of this is underway by 2030.

Though at that point, Line 5 will have reached Renforth station, connecting to the 18-km grade-separated Mississauga BRT (and while I wouldn't count most GTA BRTs like VIVA as rapid transit, surely the grade-separated ones are - moving faster than the subway!). And the Mississauga BRT (along with 3 RER GO lines) connect with the 20-km Hazel McCallion line which opens in 2024? (2023?) in Mississauga - and surely will be to Brampton by 2030.

There's also the 8-km Line 4 extension to McCowan that should be under construction in that timeframe. And the 3-km Line 5 extension to Pearson. Maybe even the long-promised 6-km Line 6 extension to Yonge and presumably a 3-km Line 6 extension to the future Woodbine Racetrack GO station.

So probably pushing about 470 km by the early 2030s. Maybe even 490 km if the City gets off their butts and builds Line 7. (I haven't heard anything about the 13-km Line 8 - Jane for a while - it seems to have fallen off the radar - so I doubt we'll see that in the early 2030s). Well over 500 km if some of those Ontario Line extensions start construction.

I'm not sure where Montreal gets to, if you include the planned Orange line extension to Bois-Franc, Blue line to Anjou, and second REM line. I'm also unsure what the timeframe is to get to all-day 2-way electrified 15-minute service on parts of the remaining EXO lines. Or what other Metro lines are planned other than the ones they were planning in the early 1980s.
That's all fine and good, but I guess you missed the part where I said this:
I decided to be generous and only include GO stations that are within the City of Toronto itself, but realistically it should encompass much more, considering how services like the REM extend outside the City of Montreal.
 

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