News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 8.5K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 39K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 4.8K     0 

GO is subsidized much more on a per passenger basis.

The Minister seems very convinced that this 15 minute service on every line will reduce subsidy levels without increasing fares....he even talked about a need in some places to reduce fares.

I can't remember all the examples he gave but he gave about 4 or 5 examples of locations where TTC stations are near GO stations and how the commute times to Union via GO are around 25-30% of the same commute via TTC. One I remember was Exhibition station....8 minutes by GO and 28 minutes by TTC....but, he said, time competitiveness is only one part of the equation...it has to be more "cost competitive" for the passenger to make the switch.....he then said "once we get Presto implemented in Toronto we will have the ability to deal with that."
 
yes, agreed. on a per train basis it will get a whole lot cheaper to operate GO once / if the full lines open. Deisel is expensive, electricity is damn cheap. Also the (likely) faster train speeds from the upgraded corridors and electrified trains mean trip lengths will be shorter and labor will be lower.

As of today however, while the TTC has a higher percentage of the fare subsidized, the overall amount is less as it costs so much more to move a single GO passenger compared to a TTC passenger. 20% of a $6 dollar fare is $1.20, while 35% of a $2.70 fare is $0.84. (recovery rates on GO are ~80%, while the TTC is ~65%)
 
GO is subsidized much more on a per passenger basis.

Is a per person or per km analysis more appropriate? I would say a combination thereof. And subsidization should include both capex and opex. Especially when looking at future funding (there is a valid argument for not looking at it for past funding but not for future)
 
Deisel is expensive, electricity is damn cheap.

Electricity is cheaper. But with the gas spikes this year I hope that OPG has a good hedging program on wholesale prices. I assume the Minster will ignore one large elephant in the room when announcing electric trains and subways...where to put the hydro plant. Assuming 25 kWh/km, 100km/h, 10 min/train and 6 lines (during rush hour), there will be a demand for and additional 90,000 kW (about 1/4 of a large gas plant).

A cost and a political choice....diesel throughout the GTA or localized pollution somewhere...and I can guess it won't be in the GTA! (I hope we use the GTA's garbage to produce this energy...and I think Oakville has a site right beside their garbage dump for it)
 
It is good that we are discussing electricity sources. After all, transit expansion would require much electricity.

Electricity can be generated by the movement of commuters (similar to how some watches charge themselves simply by moving one's wrist). Some cities have this.
 
I doubt it. I really don't see GO hiring 400 train engineers over the next decade and Lake Shore would need to hit 60 second rush-hour frequencies for necessary capacity (5 minute frequencies at Union Station now, double the ridership, and halve the size of the train for roughly 1 minute frequencies).

Well they did just authorize Bombardier to hire approx. 150 people in the last two years alone and it doesn't sound like they plan on slowing down anytime soon. Considering that, hiring another 400 within the next decade would be no surprise.

I'd be very interested to see their hiring/training plans, unless they can somehow get FRA requirements simplified or removed.

No, you wouldn't want to see that.
I doesn't seem like they have clear idea of how many people they need to hire until the last possible moment. Hence the mad rush to hire and train new crews, putting unbelieved stress on those in charge of training and which imo has lead to certain incidents that could of been otherwise avoided...

As for FRA requirements, are you referring to equipment or crewing? If your talking about crewing requirements, I don't think they will be lessened any time soon. Not after what happened in Lac Megantic with a single operator;
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...ilways_oneman_crew_documents_kept_secret.html
I'd be shocked beyond belief if TC allowed for a lessening of crew requirements on high speed(by that I mean comparatively to freight) commuter trains carrying thousands of people. Though, and my fellow union brothers would despise me for even suggesting this, if we had a more advanced system of train control, as in one that doesn't rely solely on line of sight, and if there was a lessening of operator duties/responsiblities, then TC would probably be open to a lessening of crewing requirements. But that's only going to happen if Canada ever decides to enter the 21st century when it comes to rail technology :rolleyes:
 
Well they did just authorize Bombardier to hire approx. 150 people in the last two years alone and it doesn't sound like they plan on slowing down anytime soon. Considering that, hiring another 400 within the next decade would be no surprise.



No, you wouldn't want to see that.
I doesn't seem like they have clear idea of how many people they need to hire until the last possible moment. Hence the mad rush to hire and train new crews, putting unbelieved stress on those in charge of training and which imo has lead to certain incidents that could of been otherwise avoided...

As for FRA requirements, are you referring to equipment or crewing? If your talking about crewing requirements, I don't think they will be lessened any time soon. Not after what happened in Lac Megantic with a single operator;
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...ilways_oneman_crew_documents_kept_secret.html
I'd be shocked beyond belief if TC allowed for a lessening of crew requirements on high speed(by that I mean comparatively to freight) commuter trains carrying thousands of people. Though, and my fellow union brothers would despise me for even suggesting this, if we had a more advanced system of train control, as in one that doesn't rely solely on line of sight, and if there was a lessening of operator duties/responsiblities, then TC would probably be open to a lessening of crewing requirements. But that's only going to happen if Canada ever decides to enter the 21st century when it comes to rail technology :rolleyes:

Watching the front view from my seat as we do 300km with one man crew.
8131819987_8d5c88a065_b.jpg
 
How about looking into automated driverless EMUs for the new electric GO?

Regulations prevent automation unless a route is fully grade separated. That's political bull. There's no technological reason why a railway with level crossings can't be automated. Computers can handle level crossings for god's sake.

Heck within 10 years (when this is finally supposed to be done!) we're probably going to have fully automated cars (in mixed traffic and all) on the market. AI technology is progressing rapidly these days.
 
Tim Hudak on the physics of subway travel.

"The subway is a great way to travel but the more packed it gets the less people take it...

I'm not a physicist, so I would like to ask the forum community if this statement is technically possible. I am aware of the trend of highway use expanding to meet existing capacity. But it is possible for subways to get "more packed" while experiencing a decrease in ridership?

Works in the food and beverage industry.....Yogi Berra explained why he no longer went to Ruggeri's, a St. Louis restaurant: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded."
 
Tim Hudak on the physics of subway travel.

"The subway is a great way to travel but the more packed it gets the less people take it...

I'm not a physicist, so I would like to ask the forum community if this statement is technically possible. I am aware of the trend of highway use expanding to meet existing capacity. But it is possible for subways to get "more packed" while experiencing a decrease in ridership?
Clearly he means a lower percentage of people who want to take it, would take it.

If capacity is 30,000 and demand is 20,000, then every who wants to take it, would take it.

If capacity is 30,000 and demand is 40,000, then less of the people who want to take it, would take it.

Also (like highways), if you start to shove on more people (or cars on highways) than actually fit, then the boarding times in stations get's significantly longer as everyone tries to squeeze on. Which would start to make people's travel times longer, also shifting the modal split.
 
I'd be shocked beyond belief if TC allowed for a lessening of crew requirements on high speed(by that I mean comparatively to freight) commuter trains carrying thousands of people. Though, and my fellow union brothers would despise me for even suggesting this, if we had a more advanced system of train control, as in one that doesn't rely solely on line of sight, and if there was a lessening of operator duties/responsiblities, then TC would probably be open to a lessening of crewing requirements. But that's only going to happen if Canada ever decides to enter the 21st century when it comes to rail technology :rolleyes:

It would be nice to see Transport Canada join the FRA in moving to the 21st century on train control systems rather than heavy crewing requirements and the crash energy management requirements. That said, if you speed up the train, you cut your labour requirements on a per-trip basis.
 
Tim Hudak on the physics of subway travel.

"The subway is a great way to travel but the more packed it gets the less people take it...

I'm not a physicist, so I would like to ask the forum community if this statement is technically possible. I am aware of the trend of highway use expanding to meet existing capacity. But it is possible for subways to get "more packed" while experiencing a decrease in ridership?

Technically yes. Efficient flow of passengers requires some space on the platform and trains that people can squeeze through to get on/off. If passengers have significant difficulty getting off at their stop, dwell times increase dramatically which decreases the number of trains through that point (decreases capacity).

The same is true with highways. There is a peak throughput (cars/minute) past which additional vehicles will cause a decrease in velocity (lane changing, slowing for merges, etc. starts to cascade) and total throughput decreases.


When the system is frustratingly congested, it's probably in this state operating beyond maximum throughput.

FYI, it can also happen with plumbing. Increasing the power of the pump can decrease the throughput of water when the output pipe is too small. High pressure systems have a different design from low pressure systems as a result.
 
Last edited:
Watching the front view from my seat as we do 300km with one man crew.

^^^ Like I said, with the appropriate technological & regulatory changes that is of course entirely feasible. But the capital costs of the technology and the possible effects any regulatory changes may have with safety standards (i.e. the many specific procedures currently required by either the CROR or the operating railroads, which necessitate the need for 2 rules qualified personal to perform) will need to be weighed against the costs of future savings from a reduction of crewing. And of course there will be unionized resistance, but since we at the B are only contractors(and presumably going forward they will continue to use contractors) I don't see that as ultimately offering much if any resistance at all. In any case there's been no indication at all that they even want to go that route as evidenced by the 200+ people they've hired in the last 3 years and continuing at that rate going forward. It was also entirely their decision to expand the crewing to 3 personal in the first place with the addition of the CSA position from the 2 crew per train model that CN began to utilize and that & CP currently uses. Even with the current 3-crew model the costs are still below that of CN and CP's 2-crew operation costs.

How about looking into automated driverless EMUs for the new electric GO?

Regulations prevent automation unless a route is fully grade separated. That's political bull. There's no technological reason why a railway with level crossings can't be automated. Computers can handle level crossings for god's sake.

Heck within 10 years (when this is finally supposed to be done!) we're probably going to have fully automated cars (in mixed traffic and all) on the market. AI technology is progressing rapidly these days.

It's not only a political issue but also a liability issue. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there's a single completely automated (i.e. no railway personal at all on the train) heavy railway system in the entire world. Not talking about metro's or maglev's here which are not only completely grade separated but are also well protected from trespassers, which is quite different from the typical heavy railway corridor. Aside from that, the current costs of such automation would far outweigh any benefits.

For example, the cost of installing ATC on the Yonge-University line, a completely enclosed system(meaning the technology is less involved than one required for an open and none-grade separated right-of-way) is estimated at 407$ million. And that's just for the signal system, it doesn't include the on train equipment costs for the system which is built into the TR's. That's 407$ million for just 18.8 miles of track, or 21.6$ million per mile. The GO system is currently 280 miles long and in the future will be expanding to 500+ mile. Clearly the costs for automation of the system would be an astronomical number.

Now lets weigh that against the operation costs. The current cost for train operations is about 60 million a year. To be precise GO signed a 10-year extension with the Bombarider for 927$ million(92.7$ million per year) and that includes train operations and maintenance of the trains.http://www.cp24.com/news/bombardier-extends-927m-contracts-with-metrolinx-1.1087873 That's exclusively the manpower costs and train operations would represent about 2/3 of that cost with its larger workforce.

At current costs an ATC system for the GO system would be equal to about 50-100 years of manned operation with the current 3-man crewing requirement. So what would be the benefits of ATC? Even if they do go with driverless trains I can assure you there will still be an on board service personal to deal with mechanical issues and for passenger assistance. For instance, I have no doubt you can program the train to stop for people/vehicles on the right of way/at a crossing. And you can program it to stop and inform the authorities if there is an incident. However, a computer and the software program that runs it is not going to be physically able to go out check to see if the pedestrian that was just struck at a crossing is still alive and initiate CPR to resuscitate them is it? Furthermore a software program/computer is not going to be able to physically unjam a door, respond to passenger alarms, intervene in on-board disputes between passengers, immediately respond to medical emergency's such as saving a passenger who's having a heart attack by using a defibrillator, go out onto the tracks to throw a switch that is physical jammed by an object or manually operate a defective power controlled switch, check to see if there is a dragging object under the train after striking an object or receiving an alarm for such, dislodging any object stuck underneath or in front of the train, replacing a damaged hose bad(flexible air pipe) connecting coaches. I could go on and on. Meaning there would be no operational savings benefit to having ATC verses a single driver system.

It would be a safer system of course, but that exact same benefit can be provided by a less expensive system of PTC, which is what I've been advocating for. Of course the biggest benefit to automation is the ability to increase train capacity by minimize train intervals. On the Youge-University line the minimum current interval is 150 seconds with maned operation. ATC will enable that to drop to 108 seconds. But there would be no such benefit to full automation on a rail lines with a projected train intervals of 900 seconds!; the 15 minute service that is now being promised. There wouldn't even be any benefit for a line with three times that capacity and we certainly won't be needing subway-type capacity out to Oakville, Million or Oshawa any time soon, if ever. There would be only a marginal benefit in travel times, as ATC trains would be able to make use of the maximum safe braking curve at all times. So there is some time savings there. Though there would be no benefit to acceleration or speed in between stations. Why? Because acceleration is already automatically regulated. As soon as I get the 'two to go' signal I engage the throttle from 0 to 8 immediately. Power to the traction motors is entirely controlled by the software from that moment on. It automatically regulates the power and compensates for any loss in traction regardless of throttle position. It takes me perhaps a second to do this. So I suppose a computer could do it in a fraction of that, which means a time savings would be 1 second per stop, basically negligible. When needed to maintain the schedule we are in throttle 8 the entire time when acceleration between station until we reach the maximum track or train speed.

All that really needs to be done is to introduce a non-line of sight signal system and install a PTC with enforced stops, change a few regulations and train procedures and modernize the equipment. Then you can have a single operator, which would save you from any massive outlay for a heavy rail open corridor ATC system that in the foreseeable future is unnecessary and too costly with negligible benefit and basically the same operational costs considering the need for an on-board service personal remains.

Naturally some may suggest that my opinion is biased considering my vocation. However if there is a flaw in my argument, feel free to point it out. My point being we only have a limited amount of dollars to spend, it makes no sense to essentially waste something like 5 billion of that on complete automation when the cost savings would only be at about 40 million per year for 3-crew operation and basically 0$ for a single crew operation. When system installation costs are drastically reduced and when train frequencies begin to approach metro-like levels, then ATC makes perfect sense. But the GO system will still be far away from that point even after all these planned service increases.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top