[Disparishun]

The problem is not the intensification but the fact that no new transportation infrastructure is built along side. You cant just keep building up along Yonge Street and expect the one street to handle unlimited growth. Just look at the looming disaster of World on Yonge development. The traffic increase will be crippling in this part of Yonge. The BRT was thoughlessly cancelled and the subway wont be built for decades is ever. Also, Toronto, Vaughan and Markham all magically think that road capacity is infinite and refuse to do anything on the broken road network. If Yonge is to be intensified, than the ring roads along Yonge need to be extended all the way up to Highway 7. That means roads like Willowdale and Hilda need to be widened and make to connect to Doris and Beecroft respectively. That would at least buy time until the subway is built.

+1. Just as the problem with the Yonge line being crowded isn't the Yonge line being crowded, but of the paralysis whereby there is nothing to offload. A shiny DRL dug underground to such important downtown nodes as Don Mills and Eglinton? Um, sure, but meanwhile the GO lines continue to ply the routes that many Yonge line passengers are travelling -- for more money, at piddling frequencies, just out of reach.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I recently read here there was a meeting being held to discuss Toronto's "Yonge Street North Planning Study". I scoured the city pages but could find little other than requests for tender regarding the study.

What I did find however, was a document of "comment's" by Toronto staff on the official plans adopted by Vaughan and proposed by Markham . Here is the document.

In reading the document, Toronto comes off as the nattering neighbour complaining that a fence is too high.

Vaughan and Markham are, in keeping with regional and provincial directives, planning an "urban growth centre" along the key transportation corridors of Yonge and Steeles where the development will have least effect on established neighbourhoods.

Rather than working with the neighbouring municipalities to create a well connected city centre shared by the three cities, Toronto is looking to obstructing the cities in their development plans. Toronto should be planning it's growth along this valuable gateway to the city, not turning it's back on it's neighbours and obstructing plans for urban growth.

No, you're just about right, although "NIMBY" isn't really the right term for the city's position. Toronto has been dragging its feet on this section of Yonge and its lack of support for the Yonge extension ("We can't build that, it'll be too successful!") is really holding back the development of the area. Delays are good for randomness and organic growth, but bad for getting infrastructure, road connections, regional boosterism, etc. It's Toronto land that connects North York Centre with Vaughan and Markham and it's throwing up roadblocks. There's also a little bit of a turf war going on since York Region was never *supposed* to grow as much as it did...Toronto is reluctant to embrace its northern edge.

At the North Yonge public meeting back in December, the officials presenting to the public did their best to sow seeds of fear and doubt about the prospects of redevelopment, egging people on to worry about whether or not this was too much change or if their community was being impacted or if the buildings in this rendering were too tall. Perhaps they're used to dealing with downtown NIMBYs, FoNTRA, whatever, but perhaps the public consultation process in Toronto is needlessly deferential. Anyway, the room was packed and no one took the bait. No one really has any issues with the development of the area. A few things mentioned loud and clear were 1) redevelop the area, 2) extend the subway, and 3) redevelop intensely at subway stations. Maybe extend Doris and Beecroft all the way north was a fourth thing, along with obligatories like 'more parks and playgrounds for the children.' When someone said the area is just a bunch of dumpy strip malls now but should be a great gateway neighbourhood, he got a round of applause.

So, Vaughan and Markham are planning their share of the area, the Yonge extension we already know is probably the most viable transit project in the whole city, and support for something akin to North York Centre 2.0 is about as universal as you're gonna get without going door-to-door with a polygraph test (there's even landlords sitting on run-down houses close to Yonge in anticipation of development). But Toronto's position is "Meh, we'll get around to it eventually. We're slowly doing an Avenues study...what more do you want? Progress within your lifetime or something?"

 

[canarob]

There's also a little bit of a turf war going on since York Region was never *supposed* to grow as much as it did...Toronto is reluctant to embrace its northern edge.

I think this has a lot to do with it, especially since projects like World on Yonge have office components. NYCC is already having trouble attracting new office space, and if York Region has office space taxed at a much lower rate a few stops north on the subway, why would anyone bother building new employment space in NYCC? I will concede that when the Sheppard LRT/Subway/Whatever is completed, the area around Sheppard station would be prime for office space.

 

[taal]

I think this has a lot to do with it, especially since projects like World on Yonge have office components. NYCC is already having trouble attracting new office space, and if York Region has office space taxed at a much lower rate a few stops north on the subway, why would anyone bother building new employment space in NYCC? I will concede that when the Sheppard LRT/Subway/Whatever is completed, the area around Sheppard station would be prime for office space.

Doubt it, that is I doubt the Sheppard whatever will do much to entice more office growth to NYCC.

To be fair, Yonge north of Steeles isn't exactly bursting at the seem with office use. Not yet at least. There's a small office building as part of the World on Yonge development, but the same thing exists in the tridel development at Sheppard and Yonge.


The whole notion that Toronto (or others) didn't expect York region to grow as much if flawed, there are reports going back to 2005 where Toronto acknowledges most employment growth will take place outside of Toronto.


Now things are changing south of Steeles, the newtoobrook plaza development is huge ! Larder then World On Yonge ... so hopefully this will be the catalyst.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I recently read here there was a meeting being held to discuss Toronto's "Yonge Street North Planning Study". I scoured the city pages but could find little other than requests for tender regarding the study.

What I did find however, was a document of "comment's" by Toronto staff on the official plans adopted by Vaughan and proposed by Markham . Here is the document.

In reading the document, Toronto comes off as the nattering neighbour complaining that a fence is too high.

From the document


Vaughan and Markham are, in keeping with regional and provincial directives, planning an "urban growth centre" along the key transportation corridors of Yonge and Steeles where the development will have least effect on established neighbourhoods.

Rather than working with the neighbouring municipalities to create a well connected city centre shared by the three cities, Toronto is looking to obstructing the cities in their development plans. Toronto should be planning it's growth along this valuable gateway to the city, not turning it's back on it's neighbours and obstructing plans for urban growth.

Yonge and Steeles Redevelopment - City of Vaughan

Yonge and Steeles Redevelopment - City of Markham

Sorry buddy. We have more important things to deal with within our own borders. I would much rather fix all of Toronto's transit issues before we start worrying about our neighbour municipalities. I love the idea of extending Yonge into north past Steels, but now is not the right time. Maybe in another 15 - 20 years.

You also have to remember that the Yonge line is already way over capacity. Toronto needs to build a downtown relief line before doing any extensions north of Steeles.

In fact, I think that Toronto should start coming up with plans to somehow discourage residents from outside of Toronto from taking the TTC for the time being. It just can't handle the additional riders at the moment. I suggest charging some kind of surcharge for non-torontonians to take the TTC. If you don't pay our property tax there is no reason why you should pay the same fare as Torontonians. I also suggest having some trains turn back south at York U station before it crosses Steeles.

Remember that these were just suggestions for the time being. I think that Toronto and surrounding municipalities should ultimately have one seamless and integrated transit system.

 

[GenerationW]

I love the idea of extending Yonge into north past Steels, but now is not the right time. Maybe in another 15 - 20 years.

You're dreaming if you think it'll be put off for that long.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You're dreaming if you think it'll be put off for that long.

No I'm not. It will actually probably take longer then that. The Yonge extension is almost dead last on the TTC's list of priorities. Assuming that Toronto manages not to screw up its transit agenda, this is how I see development of Toronto's transit playing out in the next few years. I listed them in order of priority. Estimated construction length is to the right.

1. Eglinton Crosstown LRT (construction now - 2020)
2. Finch LRT (construction 2012 - 2015)
3. Sheppard LRT (construction 2012-2015)
4. Spadina subway extension to Vaughan (construction now - 2015)
5. Downtown Relief Line (construction 2018- 2026 - it could likely take longer then that)
6. Don Mills LRT (construction 2015-2017 - if Rob Ford isn't mayor)
7. Jane LRT (construction 2015-2017 - if Rob Ford isn't mayor)
8. Waterfront LRT (construction 2019-2021 - if Rob Ford isn't mayor)
9. Eglinton Crosstown LRT expansion to Pearson (2020 - 2024)
10.Yonge Extension (2026- 2030 - after the DRL is constructed)
11. Malvern or another Scarborough LRT (construction ???)
12. Bloor Danforth Extension west (construction ???)

In my opinion, the construction of the Yonge extension is 100% dependant on the construction of the DRL. Toronto will NEVER extend the Yonge line without the DRL. Without the DRL, Yonge will never be built.

One way the Yonge extension could be built sooner is if the province committed to paying for both the majority of the DRL and 100% of the price of the Yonge extension. If this did happen construction of the DRL could begin in 2016 and construction of the Yonge extension could begin in 2020. Both lines be constructed at the same time and they would be opened somewhere around 2025. However, if Rob Ford is still mayor in 2016 then construction of the DRL would be pushed back to at least 2020, construction of Yonge would be pushed back to 2024, and the opening would be pushed back to 2028.

In the best case senario the province and federal government would give Toronto $20 billion in 2015 to build all of our transit priorities. They'd do this because Toronto is likely going to become one of the top 5 financial services cities in the next 10 years. If this happened, most (if not all) of Toronto's transit priorities could be built and the Yonge extension could open in 2024 at the earliest.

 

[GenerationW]

Yonge already came close to getting funding in 2009, and it's very likely it would be under construction this very day if not for the deep recession and its effect on the Ontario budget (which also led to a large reduction in the funding for Transit City).

York Region already got one subway funded over Toronto's objection in 2004/5 when Miller wanted Sheppard but lost out to Spadina. Once York gets funding finalized for Yonge (which, as with Spadina, will likely include contributions from both Queen's Park and Ottawa), there will be nothing Toronto can do to stop it. Just as Miller smiled for the cameras when Spadina was announced, so will Ford or his successor for Yonge.

It's all well and good to talk about a DRL, but in terms of priorities Yonge is already in Metrolinx's 15-year plan, while the DRL is in the 25-year plan. Not to mention that the chances of Toronto saying say no to a fully-funded Yonge extension are somewhere around zero, with or without a DRL. And the fact that neither Ford or City Council will spend a dime of the current $8.4 billion of available funding on the DRL speaks to how big a priority it is at the moment, politically speaking.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yonge already came close to getting funding in 2009, and it's very likely it would be under construction this very day if not for the deep recession and its effect on the Ontario budget (which also led to a large reduction in the funding for Transit City).

York Region already got one subway funded over Toronto's objection in 2004/5 when Miller wanted Sheppard but lost out to Spadina. Once York gets funding finalized for Yonge (which, as with Spadina, will likely include contributions from both Queen's Park and Ottawa), there will be nothing Toronto can do to stop it. Just as Miller smiled for the cameras when Spadina was announced, so will Ford or his successor for Yonge.

It's all well and good to talk about a DRL, but in terms of priorities Yonge is already in Metrolinx's 15-year plan, while the DRL is in the 25-year plan. Not to mention that the chances of Toronto saying say no to a fully-funded Yonge extension are somewhere around zero, with or without a DRL. And the fact that neither Ford or City Council will spend a dime of the current $8.4 billion of available funding on the DRL speaks to how big a priority it is at the moment, politically speaking.

I don't think that a Yonge expansion could be sold to Torontonians. I personally think that you are nuts if you think that Torononians can be convinced to welcome tens of thousands of people from Vaughan, who don't pay Toronto property tax, to flood the already overcrowded Yonge line that is at 120% capacity. Toronianians are already very split on the idea of the Spadina extension; and Spadina is nowhere near full capacity. If the line is extended, whoever forces it is setting themselves up for an enormous political disaster. I can easily see the TTC doing everything in its power to discourage people in Vaughan from taking the subway with things like service reductions or fare hikes. They did it in Toronto this year and there's no reason why they will not do it to Vaughan.

For this project to be successful all parties need to be willing to do it. At the moment Toronto seems completely against the idea and as I said before, the only way I can see Toronto willingly signing up for this is if the city could receive assurances from the province and the City of Vaughan that the extension would not result in increased overcrowding on the Yonge line. As we both know, it is impossible for this extension to not cause overcrowding issues without another subway line being constructed.

So in conclusion, you are right. This extension could be forced on Torontonians. But all it would do is create a political fire storm and cause huge amount of tension between Vaughan and Toronto.

Just as Miller smiled for the cameras when Spadina was announced, so will Ford or his successor for Yonge.

I doubt that any Toronto mayor will just smile for the cameras if he/she was forced to build this extension. Remember that the Spadina line is not at full capacity, so an extension to Vaughan wouldn't have a huge effect on congestion.

Yonge is different. The line is at 120% capacity and there is NO WAY that any mayor would be able to look Torontonians in they eye and tell them that this extension is good for Toronto. It will just cost Toronto millions of dollars annually to maintain and cause far greater overcrowding.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

It's all well and good to talk about a DRL, but in terms of priorities Yonge is already in Metrolinx's 15-year plan, while the DRL is in the 25-year plan. Not to mention that the chances of Toronto saying say no to a fully-funded Yonge extension are somewhere around zero, with or without a DRL. And the fact that neither Ford or City Council will spend a dime of the current $8.4 billion of available funding on the DRL speaks to how big a priority it is at the moment, politically speaking.

You're right. Miller and Giambrone had no interest in the DRL or they would have requested it when McGuinty gave them a blank chque for whatever their hearts desired. Ford has no interest in the DRL or his funding and construction switcharoos would be aimed at the DRL. The province has no interest in stepping in and getting the DRL built any time soon.

Yonge is very politically palatable. It'll be a guaranteed success and it's an obvious extension, being simply farther up our main street. It wouldn't be too hard to get money thrown at it soon, even funding the silly elements like the planned Steeles station that would probably cost over $300 million.

I don't think that a Yonge expansion could be sold to Torontonians.

I doubt that any Toronto mayor will just smile for the cameras if he/she was forced to build this extension. Remember that the Spadina line is not at full capacity, so an extension to Vaughan wouldn't have a huge effect on congestion.

Yonge is different. The line is at 120% capacity and there is NO WAY that any mayor would be able to look Torontonians in they eye and tell them that this extension is good for Toronto. It will just cost Toronto millions of dollars annually to maintain and cause far greater overcrowding.

Toronto doesn't end at Finch. The Yonge extension doesn't need to be sold to the people in the 416 that will be using it. Other than maybe a handful of conservative curmudgeons who don't think the government should be spending their tax dollars on much of anything at all, the only people that would oppose the Yonge extension are transit advocates.

Spadina will be overcrowded soon enough, just like the other 3 lines. It'll boost transit's modal share for a large quadrant of the city, divert thousands of riders via Finch West, and it's also slated for quite dramatic intensification all the way from Lawrence West up to Hwy 7. The University line will be swamped to death just like the Yonge half of the YUS loop.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Toronto doesn't end at Finch. The Yonge extension doesn't need to be sold to the people in the 416 that will be using it.

I'm sorry. I'm was mistaken. Toronto doesn't end at Finch. It ends one major intersection north of Finch, at Steeles. So by building this extension, you may get half of the few thousand Torontonians who live near Steeles and Yonge to support it. But good luck selling it to the other 2.48 million Torontonains.

Other than maybe a handful of conservative curmudgeons who don't think the government should be spending their tax dollars on much of anything at all, the only people that would oppose the Yonge extension are transit advocates.

I honestly don't think that the only ones against the Spadina extension are Conservatives. From what I've observed there is pretty much unanimous disapproval amongst Torontonians about the Spadina extension (north of Steeles). And I wouldn't underestimate transit advocates. As we've seen in the last few months with the LRT vs "subway" debate, transit advocates are a very powerful voice in Toronto.

Spadina will be overcrowded soon enough, just like the other 3 lines. It'll boost transit's modal share for a large quadrant of the city, divert thousands of riders via Finch West, and it's also slated for quite dramatic intensification all the way from Lawrence West up to Hwy 7. The University line will be swamped to death just like the Yonge half of the YUS loop.

I was very confused about what you said here. All I took from it was that:

1. Spadina/University would have been overcrowded anyways so the extension might as well be built
2. Thousands of riders would be put on Finch West
3. "and it's also slated for quite dramatic intensification all the way from Lawrence West up to Hwy 7" most of the area you mention is already serviced by subways in Toronto. So the extension would still have little benefit for Torontonains.

I honestly can't see how any of what you said would support the construction of the Yonge extension. Perhaps I'm interpreting what you wrote incorrectly.

Miller and Giambrone had no interest in the DRL or they would have requested it when McGuinty gave them a blank chque for whatever their hearts desired.

This happened because there is a crisis in most areas of Toronto due to lack of rapid transit. Rapid tranist was badly needed on Finch, Sheppard, Eglinton etc... and Transit City would have gotten rapid transit to those areas quickly. The DRL was logically second in prioirty to Transit City.

 

[GenerationW]

The idea that Transit City was/is rapid transit beyond the underground portion of Eglinton has been debated on this forum for years, and as I recall all the TC literature I saw at public meetings avoided using the word "rapid" to describe it. But that's a whole argument unto itself.

If the DRL really was "logically second", that sure flies in the face of what Adam Giambrone was saying at TC open houses. He specifically said that TC would have to be completed in its entirety before a DRL could even be considered, which means he didn't see the DRL as a priority at all, second or otherwise.

Yonge has had an environmental assessment and TTC public information meetings in 2009/10, and has/will have the support of Ottawa, the Province, and York Region, including key York Region MP's. It's basically already sold, and ready to go as soon as the funding is secured. On the other hand, right now the DRL (which I support as much as anyone) has close to no one and nothing behind it.

The real question is, when Yonge gets final approval (I predict 2015-20), can Toronto get any funding for the DRL? Will it even try?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The real question is, when Yonge gets final approval (I predict 2015-20), can Toronto get any funding for the DRL? Will it even try?

Funding for the DRL is a necessity. The moment you extend the Yonge line, it goes from something barley usable to something that is completely unusable. The line can't handle any more passengers and I can easily see a situation where the TTC starts to discourage, or even makes it impossible for people to use the Yonge line due to overcrowding. Also remember that the Yonge line will be dealing with EVEN MORE passengers from the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, Finch LRT and Sheppard LRT.

Also there are some very serious safety concerns because of the crowding. At some stations the platforms are already filled to the edge with passengers. Its only a matter of time before someone falls off and gets hit by a train. Also, in the train people are packed like sardines. If there ever was a fire onboard one of our trains or in one of our stations I doubt that we could evacuate everyone in time.

Additionally, there's the question of how will the TTC move all these additional passengers. Sometimes I have to let 3 or 4 trains pass me on the Yonge line before I can stuff myself into an already overcrowded train. Will that wait now be increased to 6 or 7 trains because of the extension?

Like I've said before, this extension is one of the worst ideas for transit I've heard in a very long time. There is no way that the Yonge line can handle the additional ridership from Vaughan, Eglinton, Finch AND Sheppard. The line will be completely unusable. Its a bad idea for the people of Vaughan. Its an even worse idea for the people of Toronto.

 

[Chuck]

ATU and the new trains are supposed to increase capacity by what, 30%? There is no chance that the extension will boost ridership by 30% - that would require the extra riders from the various transit city lines, plus population growth.

Even if the Yonge extension is built, I predict that in 10 years time, the aforementioned upgrades will mean that the subway will feel no more crowded than it is today, even though it is carrying more people. The difference will be that instead of having to let 2 full trains pass by over a 5 minute period, you'll have to let 2 slightly larger trains pass by over a shorter 3 minute period.

I say build the extension ASAP. There is no reason not to build a line that will be successful given that massive capacity increases are soon to be realized. Rush hour crowding is a fact of life in all cities and in all modes. Everyone can't expect to get a seat at 5 pm.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Changed my mind about the Yonge extension. Drill baby drill!!

-I still want the DRL though.