MisterF said:
I don't think Spain supports the point you're trying to make. The metros in Madrid and Barcelona are generally underground in the central areas and above ground in outlying areas. In other words, the opposite of what Toronto is doing. If Toronto were to follow the Spanish model as you suggest, the Ontario Line would be underground through Riverdale and the Scarborough, Eglinton West, and Vaughan extensions would be above ground.

Full size trains like on Lines 1, 2, and 4 can be automated just as easily as smaller trains. Automation isn't an argument for smaller trains.


When the Ontario Line is overcrowded soon after it opens, the calls for a relief line relief line will start. And it will promptly get built sometime in the 2130s.
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relief line relief line 😂 😂 😂
 
toronto647 said:
The provincial election is slated for mid 2022 however Ford is not going to wait that long. He's likely to call a snap election in the early spring following the results of the snap elections of BC and New Brunswick. Anybody can predict that because he will want to ride the high political favourability numbers. It would be political suicide for him to wait till mid 2022
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Then he should call it now.

Last time a leader tried this stunt in Ontario, was David Peterson in 1990 ... and remember how that ended, with a huge loss of support during the election, because people were upset that he'd called an unnecessary early election, only 3 years after the previous one, with a huge majority.

This isn't like New Brunswick or British Columbia, which had minority governments. And in New Brunswick, the government had the advantage of completely defeating Covid, with only two deaths to date. I'm not sure that this gamble will even pay of in BC, where Covid has been significantly worsening in recent days, and support for the governing party has already slipped about 5% since the election call.

Another nail in the coffin of the Ontario line. Transit delayed is transit denied.

turini2 said:
You joke, but one of the things Crossrail 2 in London is planned to do - is relieve the overcrowded Victoria line, which was built in the 1960s to relieve other overcrowded lines and stations in central London. 😂
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While true, they've been talking about Crossrail 2 in various guises since before the Victoria Line was completed. The original plan was to build it after the Jubillee (Fleet) line was completed, which itself had started construction before the Victoria line was finished. Back then (as now), there was continual tube expansion ... from about 1960 to 1979. When things resumed in the 1990s, Crossrail (which had been planned since the 1940s) got the priority.
 
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turini2 said:
You joke, but one of the things Crossrail 2 in London is planned to do - is relieve the overcrowded Victoria line, which was built in the 1960s to relieve other overcrowded lines and stations in central London. 😂
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I mean all subways inherently are built underground to relive the congestion of the above infrastructure, so by their nature all subways are relief lines.

Oh wait, except the Sheppard Line, the planned Scarborough Line, and the Eglinton West Line. They are built underground due to NIMBYism and political pandering. There is no congestion or density issues above ground.

Ill amend that, all subways built in intelligent cities run by competent politicians inherently are built underground to relive the congestion of the above infrastructure, so by their nature all subways are relief lines.
 
Reecemartin said:
I think the real win in the OL plan is showing Toronto that extensive elevated and automated (as well as more modest sized) metros are really actually quite a good option. If you look at the systems Spain built they generally followed this model and have been building stuff at a crazy pace.

If you look at how much we are spending on Eglinton and Finch, both projects would probably not be that much more to convert the at grade parts to an elevated OL style Metro (probably with shorter 4 car trains), however the quality of service would be miles ahead.

Obviously we need a Relief Line and have for some time, if we keep doing every major line as a full subway its going to take us a lot longer to build the big grid everyone wants. Plus, I think theres a strong case that having 2 smaller (but still fully grade separated) lines is better than having 1, you can get more coverage, more well distributed traffic, and maybe most importantly more overall redundancy to protect from shutdowns.
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I would say that Madrid's rapid metro system growth had more variables than the construction method. It was working under some luxuries Toronto doesn't have:
- Continuous work hours where construction went on 24/7 (dunno how possible this is in Canada)
- Plenty of opportunities for cut-and-cover (this probably won't be much of an option in downtown Toronto)
- Didn't perform EA's.
- Less stringent fire regulations.
- Favorable ground conditions that made boring relatively easier.
- Economies of scale due to the rapid expansion (equipment could just be reused in the next metro extension)
This was sourced from Steve Munro's blog on a Metrolinx report. The original report seems to be lost.

Madrid is also a very dense European city where there is a lot of political will to expand public transport. While even Toronto's conservatives seem to be slowly embracing public transport, there is still a long way to go before I can see Toronto politicians becoming very serious at continuously expanding public transport like what is done in Europe. Also remember that Toronto isn't the only city in Canada. Western Canada is seeing relatively strong population growth so other cities will be begging for transit money as well in the next few decades. This is going to make it an even tougher sell to the Federal government who will scratch their heads on why they need to fund a second subway line in downtown Toronto (I'm assuming the provincial government will not be involved as they are footing Toronto's bill for the Ontario line).

I'm not saying Toronto is "unique," more so that EVERY city has a unique set of variables that determines how easily they can get through on expanding their metro systems as not every city has the same soil, regulations and political environment. Not to say that getting two relief lines will be "impossible" to achieve, it's just working with some different variables from what Spain had. I find that Montréal would probably be a better example, as there seems to be significantly more appetite for REM expansion than full out metro expansions. Only problem is that these plans aren't concrete so no saying if this is a political ploy for votes or genuine interest.
 
warrens said:
Try getting that through to angry Leslievillians who still want their stations underground, even though the geotechnical situation would've resulted in this monstrosity that was originally proposed at Gerrard. I've circled the four large escalators one would have to take to get from track level to ground level:

View attachment 271479
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What report was this diagram from?
 
I hope Ford just tells these people to go to hell. I can't stand it when people bitch about more rail service yet they choose to live along a rail corridor. It also sets a dangerous precedent. What if all the people living in their shiny new condos at CityPlace decided to do the same and try to put a stop to RER or GO expansion because they didn't want any more trains whistling by their new homes? What if the people in Smith Falls or Kitchener who live along the new proposed HFR/HSR corridors decided they want to put a stop to the project because the increase in train traffic they find simply too traumatising?

The laughable part is that these same people will see their home values double due to being along a subway line. Of course when selling their homes they could send the extra amount and cut a cheque for the difference to Queen's Park to prove their belief in their righteous values. Somehow, however, I just don't see that happening and for anyone who does I have some lovely real estate in Syria I'm just itching to show you.
 
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.. except they are going to go from trains from every 10-15 minutes to trains every minute and a half AND be closer to there houses then the existing tracks. They have a right to complain ..
 
Kitsune said:
.. except they are going to go from trains from every 10-15 minutes to trains every minute and a half AND be closer to there houses then the existing tracks. They have a right to complain ..
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They are also going to be small electric trains, not diesel locomotives. Its apples and oranges.
 
Kitsune said:
.. except they are going to go from trains from every 10-15 minutes to trains every minute and a half AND be closer to there houses then the existing tracks. They have a right to complain ..
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Except no not really. Yes they will have trains every minute and a half, but that will happen with or without the Ontario Line. With GO Expansion, Metrolinx is planning to run 8 Stouffville Line trains every hour per direction off peak, as well as 4 trains per hour per direction on LSE. Already that's a total of 24 trains per hour in that stretch, or about a train every 2.5 minutes. On top of that, Metrolinx is planning to run an additional 5 trains per hour on LSE, and 3 trains per hour on Stoufville during rush hours, bringing the total to 32 trains per hour, or a train every minute and 50 seconds. ON TOP OF THAT, Via is currently working on HFR, which will see a train run every 20 mins per direction, bringing the total to 38 trains per hour excluding the Ontario Line, which is approximately a train every 90 seconds. All of these trains are also heavy rail trains that will be SIGNIFICANTLY noisier, and will have significantly more impact on the surrounding community than a tiny OL train. When up against all of this, a tiny electric light train running every 45 seconds is practically insignificant, and if the neighborhood of Leslieville is legitimately concerned about the sound levels in their area, they're seriously barking up the wrong tree.
 
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ssiguy2 said:
I hope Ford just tells these people to go to hell. I can't stand it when people bitch about more rail service yet they choose to live along a rail corridor. It also sets a dangerous precedent. What if all the people living in their shiny new condos at CityPlace decided to do the same and try to put a stop to RER or GO expansion because they didn't want any more trains whistling by their new homes? What if the people in Smith Falls or Kitchener who live along the new proposed HFR/HSR corridors decided they want to put a stop to the project because the increase in train traffic they find simply too traumatising?

The laughable part is that these same people will see their home values double due to being along a subway line. Of course when selling their homes they could send the extra amount and cut a cheque for the difference to Queen's Park to prove their belief in their righteous values. Somehow, however, I just don't see that happening and for anyone who does I have some lovely real estate in Syria I'm just itching to show you.
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"I hope Ford tells people in Scarborough to go to hell. I can't stand it when people bitch about suburban transit service when they choose to live in the suburbs."
 
CapitalSeven said:
They will have to put up noise walls from Gerrard to Eastern. That should mitigate the problem enough to satisfy folks,
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That is certainly fair. I am not saying that every complaint should be dismissed out of hand and reasonable accomodation to the local communities should not be shown but the operative word is reasonable. Expecting taxpayers to bailout an extra billion so they can have an underground network because they choose to live on a rail corridor is patently unreasonable.
 
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