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Northern Light

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But right now, "here" we are, discussing an exact route, looking at sketches for bridges & tunnel locations, and we have a proposed timeline for the next two-three years leading up to the start of work. People are arguing over station names and deliberating over precise little details like where a staircase might go. To me, that's a lot progress.
We are literally no further along on O/L than we were on R/L; in fact we are literally further behind in the southern portion. R/L North had a route as far as Eglinton.

What we have here is not real.

We are not at the 10% design stage.

We are not immediately pre-tender.

That may change.

But if your concern is whether this might actually happen, we are worse off now than we were 2 years ago; there really is no arguing about that.

There is no money attached; there is no tender, there is no project.

There are some very vague ideas that a dozen people in this forum are capable of producing better drawing of; and more technically detailed and proficient designs for..............
 

Northern Light

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Meanwhile expropriation notices have gone out.
Nope. These are not expropriation notices.

They are letters that convey that Mx is thinking of taking your property.

But they aren't even at the stage of voluntary offers/negotiations, which will come before expropriation.

They are enough to cause property owners concern; but not enough to commit to doing anything.
 

TheTigerMaster

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Not to mention, depending on how you construct the stations, it's quite easy to do a build where you dictate where passenger traffic will flow to. Let's say you have a station building on the North East Corner of the intersection. Since the line is elevated, you're going to need an Escalator to get to the platform. Depending on how high the platform is and where the escalator starts, it's entirely possible to have at least most pedestrians reaching the platform at around the midway.
Oh, no doubt about that. That's especially true for elevated stations. I mainly wrote that up to highlight how fickle capacity can be, unless all element of the project are properly designed. That if MX cheaps out on the design, we could end up with less capacity than intended. Unfortunately, in the pursuit of cost savings, these details can get overlooked.
 

W. K. Lis

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This image from
Nope. These are not expropriation notices.

They are letters that convey that Mx is thinking of taking your property.

But they aren't even at the stage of voluntary offers/negotiations, which will come before expropriation.

They are enough to cause property owners concern; but not enough to commit to doing anything.
Tells me that I shouldn't bother doing any big renovations on my kitchen, but would like to know if the roof should just be patched and not replaced.
 

warrens

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We are literally no further along on O/L than we were on R/L; in fact we are literally further behind in the southern portion. R/L North had a route as far as Eglinton.
No, you're wrong about the North segment. Dude, it's bad enough that you want to play gatekeeper on this forum, but if you're going to be tendentious too, you've got to get your basic info right.

There was never a decided-upon "Relief Line North" map with stations. They didn't get that far. All we ever got were the display boards from public consultations in early 2018 -- see the 30-page thread on this forum where people talked about it at length and proposed their own alternatives. The TTC & Metrolinx were probably having the same conversations internally.

That's why this screenshot from the final revision of the Relief Line North web site, from mid-2019, shows that they weren't even close to choosing a route:
1602111199003.png


(You can reference this Steve Munro tweet if you need someone familiar to tell you the same thing.)

We didn't learn that the exact route would be Don Mills & Eglinton via Overlea until the original Ontario Line IBC was published in July 2019.
 

salsa

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Heck, even looking at some of the early station layouts, we can already see some red flags in the design that might cause capacity issues on the Ontario Line in the future.

Notice that Eglinton-Don Mills Station (I refuse to call it Science Centre 😂) on the Ontario Line is positioned entirely north of the Eglinton Line. Given this positioning, it's most probable that passengers who are transferring from the Eglinton Line to the Ontario Line will be entering the Ontario Line platform from the south side of the OL platform (this is the side closest to Eglinton Avenue). This is a big deal because it will result in poor load balancing on the OL trains. The south end of the train will be over capacity, while the north end of the train is empty. This means that passengers waiting on the south end of platforms at downstream stations (say, at Throncliffe Park or Pape Station), will be presented with totally full cars, and will be unable to board, despite the north end of the train largely being empty. At best, this will reduce the capacity of the line, as some passengers will not be able to board. At worst, this will reduce the capacity and the headways of the line, as badly behaved passengers hold doors in an attempt to squeeze into stations.



I know this sounds all very academic and nitpicky, but when you're trying to achieve 90s headways, you don't have the luxury of having any stations with poor pedestrian layouts, as this will impact your achievable capacity and headways.

We have a similar situation limiting the capacity of the Yonge Line right here in Toronto. Notice in the below diagram of the Bloor-Yonge station that the Line 2 platforms are at the north side of the Line 1 platforms. This results in passengers transferring from the Bloor Line, to the Yonge Line crowding at the north end of the Yonge Line platform, while the south end remains relatively empty. This causes a load imbalance on the trains, where the north of the train is overcapacity, while the south end is empty (you can see this effect if you watch Yonge Line trains pull into B-Y Station during rush hour). For the same reasons I described above, this culminates in a significant negative impact on the capacity and headways on the Yonge Line.

What this means is that even if the Yonge Line was could run at the 90s headways permissible by the TTC's ATO system, the poor layout of Bloor-Yonge Station alone would make running the trains at this frequency near impossible. And even if they could be run at that frequency, the poor load balancing on the trains would limit the effective capacity of the line, as the northern cars on the train will be over capacity, while the southern end is empty.

View attachment 274918

This highlights one of the reasons why I say 90 second headways, and their theoretically achievable capacities, are very fickle, and should not be depended upon. If those are the frequencies and crowding standards you're designing around, you have zero room to screw around with poorly designed stations and various other factors. It also means that value engineering (which the Ontario Line is susceptible to) could end up throwing away whatever theoretical capacity you thought you had.

For Eglinton-Don Mills Station specifically, Metrolinx needs to be very careful about how they're handling pedestrian distribution within the station. This is going to be one of the three most used stations of the line, so it is important that they encourage passengers to distribute themselves within the trains in the most efficient manner. Unfortunately the early design suggests that they're going to repeat the design mistakes of Bloor-Yonge Station.
Your comparison to Yonge & Bloor is not taking into account the huge differences in vertical distance. To travel from the Crosstown platform to the OL entails going up to the concourse level, down a long tunnel, then up to the bus terminal, then up again to the elevated OL platform. It's nothing like Yonge & Bloor where passengers are just quickly funneled through one set of stairs on one side of the platform.


 

warrens

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Notice that Eglinton-Don Mills Station (I refuse to call it Science Centre 😂) on the Ontario Line is positioned entirely north of the Eglinton Line. Given this positioning, it's most probable that passengers who are transferring from the Eglinton Line to the Ontario Line will be entering the Ontario Line platform from the south side of the OL platform (this is the side closest to Eglinton Avenue). This is a big deal because it will result in poor load balancing on the OL trains. The south end of the train will be over capacity, while the north end of the train is empty. This means that passengers waiting on the south end of platforms at downstream stations (say, at Throncliffe Park or Pape Station), will be presented with totally full cars, and will be unable to board, despite the north end of the train largely being empty. At best, this will reduce the capacity of the line, as some passengers will not be able to board. At worst, this will reduce the capacity and the headways of the line, as badly behaved passengers hold doors in an attempt to squeeze into stations.

I know this sounds all very academic and nitpicky, but when you're trying to achieve 90s headways, you don't have the luxury of having any stations with poor pedestrian layouts, as this will impact your achievable capacity and headways.
It's a good nitpick, but it kind of assumes that people aren't naturally inclined to spread down the platform on their own. That's what happens at the eastern end of Spadina Line 2, which gets nearly-constant streams of people walking off the streetcar and coming down the staircase. They don't just stand at the end of the Spadina platform. They spread out. And if you do get onto the train at one end just as the doors are closing, and it's busy around you, you'll probably walk through the train to somewhere a bit quieter. Smarter subway commuters do this already to get close to where they're alighting.

If the behaviour of OL terminal stations is anything like Kipling, then there will pretty much always be a subway with its doors open, which naturally avoids crowding. I wouldn't be too concerned about people holding the doors open. And even if there isn't always a train waiting, there will still be platform screen doors, so if you see 20 people crowding around one door, then you're going to move to another door.

I also have serious doubts that the Crosstown will be able to feed passengers into the OL at such a rate that the front-most southbound car could be filled up every 90 seconds.

That all said, there's also the busy 25 Don Mills bus to consider. Southbound travellers could transfer in via a second more central entrance to the OL platform, which should balance things out a bit. I've been on the 25 southbound during the morning rush hour multiple times... it's quite busy, and a lot of people stayed on the bus all the way from Eglinton to Pape. I imagine those people will all transfer onto the OL as soon as possible.
 

Northern Light

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No, you're wrong about the North segment. Dude, it's bad enough that you want to play gatekeeper on this forum, but if you're going to be tendentious too, you've got to get your basic info right.

There was never a decided-upon "Relief Line North" map with stations. They didn't get that far. All we ever got were the display boards from public consultations in early 2018 -- see the 30-page thread on this forum where people talked about it at length and proposed their own alternatives. The TTC & Metrolinx were probably having the same conversations internally.

That's why this screenshot from the final revision of the Relief Line North web site, from mid-2019, shows that they weren't even close to choosing a route:
View attachment 274944

(You can reference this Steve Munro tweet if you need someone familiar to tell you the same thing.)

We didn't learn that the exact route would be Don Mills & Eglinton via Overlea until the original Ontario Line IBC was published in July 2019.
I would ask that you stop being so aggressive.

I'm not going to engage in a flame war.

I'm not wrong.

You can believe what you wish.
 

warrens

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Your comparison to Yonge & Bloor is not taking into account the huge differences in vertical distance. To travel from the Crosstown platform to the OL entails going up to the concourse level, down a long tunnel, then up to the bus terminal, then up again to the elevated OL platform. It's nothing like Yonge & Bloor where passengers are just quickly funneled through one set of stairs on one side of the platform.
You posted this while I was writing the above. I believe they'll add escalators & an elevator directly from the long hallway up to the OL track level. Expecting everyone to go through the bus terminal would be pretty messy.
 

warrens

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I would ask that you stop being so aggressive.
For your part, I remind you that getting on my case about my behaviour while choosing to ignore the topic we are discussing is borderline ad-hominem behaviour. You've done this twice now. It's a low-quality, low-SNR discussion method that goes nowhere & accomplishes nothing. If you're going to respond to my posts, stay focused on transit topics. If a moderator has a problem with my behaviour, they'll let me know, I'm sure.

I'm not wrong.
There's really no reason for you to feel this way. You never saw an official RLN route or station map, even in draft form, so why believe it exists? Hell, even the Transit City "Don Mills LRT" project never got as far as a single agreed-upon route before it was cancelled.

You can believe what you wish.
The RLN project timeline I described is not my "belief". It's what happened, whether any of us here like it or not.

And so we're clear, I don't like it because we were told there'd be a much more extensive consultation period about Relief Line North routing, and it would go all the way to Sheppard. What we got instead was (and this last part is my belief) Ford and Mulroney arbitrarily picking a route for as childishly simplistic a reason as the OSC having the word "Ontario" in the name.
 

44 North

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There was never a decided-upon "Relief Line North" map with stations. They didn't get that far. All we ever got were the display boards from public consultations in early 2018 -- see the 30-page thread on this forum where people talked about it at length and proposed their own alternatives. The TTC & Metrolinx were probably having the same conversations internally.
Worst part is that the Prov gave themselves $150M to study RLN. Since they didn't exactly have anything to show for it, what'd they do with that money for two years.

Probably will have an enclosure as it passes over the archery range. There are bad shots, and there bad shots.
 

99Messier

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Random observation: Side platforms. Centre platforms are not to be found at all?
But centre platform saves $10M on elevators. Why don't they spend the extra quarter Billion to save $10M.
(not meant to be critical of you, just some others who deemed centre platform the only way).
 

Haydenpoon

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You posted this while I was writing the above. I believe they'll add escalators & an elevator directly from the long hallway up to the OL track level. Expecting everyone to go through the bus terminal would be pretty messy.
The bus terminal is not directly adjacent to Eglinton Avenue(slightly to the north), so maybe there is space for escalators directly from Ontario Line to the concourse. (see the image)

Notes_201007_230956_abc_1.jpg
 

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