[warrens]

We're kind of grasping at straws here. Barring political interference, the Relief Line South would've been under construction years before the OL, whose components won't see financing close until 2022 at the earliest. The RLS was planned to be delivered by 2028, while the OL's timeline is a big question mark at this point. The government claims one of their primary motivations for moving forward with the OL was the purported faster timelines. We knew from Day 1 that the faster timelines weren't all that credible, but now it's near certain that the OL will be delivered years after the Relief Line would've.

Huh? I promise you won't be able to find a reliable quote from city officials or a TTC staffer for "by 2028". Where in the world did you get that number from.... Keesmaat's mayoral election platform? She's basically the only insider who promised to find a way to get it done that quickly.

You can view this document from an April 2019 city hall meeting agenda, describing 2027 as the "mid-point" of the construction, with a completion timeline around 2030-2031.

 

[warrens]

According to 2018 ridership stats it's not 4th busiest...and for an interchange station the ridership is kind of where you'd expect it.

Ah yes. I was looking at the 2014 numbers published on the TTC web site, when the order was Bloor/Yonge, St. George, Union, Sheppard. The updated 2018 numbers show that Sheppard is now tied(ish) for 5th place with Kennedy. It doesn't change my point though -- 80,000 people a day is still very, very busy, especially when it's all going on the Yonge line. This is absolutely, 100% the problem we're hoping to see resolved.

Sheppard/Yonge is a fairly built up area, but Sheppard itself is rather suburban in nature. It's a long, long way from having the commerical and residential density necessary to justify a subway. Having two subway lines meet here:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

McCowan/Sheppard is more built up today than the entire area around Kipling Station was when it opened in 1980. It was very suburban at the time... the power lines were the tallest things there! But that station was a big deal because it was designed as a modal transfer hub. Big parking lots, many bus bays, and even a plan for a future "Etobicoke RT"

Building a new station at McCowan/Sheppard would serve a similar purpose to the original purpose of Kipling. Yes, it's suburban, but it reaches that much closer to where a lot of people live. It means that people can come down McCowan from Finch/Steeles, etc., or across Sheppard, and not have to slog it westwards for another 30++ minutes just to get on a subway.

As for Sheppard itself..... if you want to play the Google Maps game, at the very least, use a map from the future?

All of those black pins are future buildings. Most of them are 20+ floors, with some at 40+. The purple-ish pins represent 200+ floors of residential construction happening right now. Sheppard East is one of the thickest new development areas outside of the core.

Heck.... one of those dots... just one, is this entire project.

.... and that's in addition to the ~25 10+ storey apartment buildings & condos already within a 15 minute walk of the corner of Sheppard & Kennedy.

All of these projects will™ be done by 2030, at which point it's going to be abundantly clear that the Sheppard East extension needs to move forward. And it will also be abundantly clear that OL needs to extend north from Eglinton to Sheppard.

 

[warrens]

Promising to cancel the Ontario Line to bring in the Relief Line is not going to get you any extra votes and it may even cost you votes. Let's move on. The Relief Line is dead.

Helps to remember that Relief Line South, in and of itself, wasn't going to solve a lot of problems beyond fractionally reducing transfer congestion at Bloor/Yonge. Nobody would've ever proposed building subway stations at Carlaw/Queen or King/Sumach on their own merits, and the number of people who would actually change their vote because someone's promising to revive those stations back can't be more than a handful....

As for whether Relief Line is "dead", I don't agree with that. Yes, the "Ontario Line" moniker and the politicians who proposed it are distasteful to many transit advocates, but away from the politics, on the ground level it's mostly the same people working on it. A bunch of folks literally changed jobs from the TTC to Metrolinx and carried on with what they were doing before, just with some different parameters, and with better ideas winning out.

 

[robmausser]

... the line cant be modified to be buried due to the OL on opposite sides of the corridor. There will be no room for a portal back underground in east harbour without conflicting with the go corridor.

Yes im saying they would redesign the whole line in that section again. To not run in the GO corridor.

 

[north-of-anything]

Obviously we need a Relief Line and have for some time, if we keep doing every major line as a full subway its going to take us a lot longer to build the big grid everyone wants. Plus, I think theres a strong case that having 2 smaller (but still fully grade separated) lines is better than having 1, you can get more coverage, more well distributed traffic, and maybe most importantly more overall redundancy to protect from shutdowns.

As much as I agree with this statement, what's the second line? Where is it going to go?

 

[syn]

Ah yes. I was looking at the 2014 numbers published on the TTC web site, when the order was Bloor/Yonge, St. George, Union, Sheppard. The updated 2018 numbers show that Sheppard is now tied(ish) for 5th place with Kennedy. It doesn't change my point though -- 80,000 people a day is still very, very busy, especially when it's all going on the Yonge line. This is absolutely, 100% the problem we're hoping to see resolved.

The problem is not going to be resolved by extending the Sheppard Line, unless the OL/DRL is extended to Don Mills.

It's been nearly two decades since the Sheppard Line opened, and most of the stops are still among the least used in the entire system. Most of the ridership can be attributed to having an express line to Don Mills.

McCowan/Sheppard is more built up today than the entire area around Kipling Station was when it opened in 1980. It was very suburban at the time... the power lines were the tallest things there! But that station was a big deal because it was designed as a modal transfer hub. Big parking lots, many bus bays, and even a plan for a future "Etobicoke RT"

Building a new station at McCowan/Sheppard would serve a similar purpose to the original purpose of Kipling. Yes, it's suburban, but it reaches that much closer to where a lot of people live. It means that people can come down McCowan from Finch/Steeles, etc., or across Sheppard, and not have to slog it westwards for another 30++ minutes just to get on a subway.

As for Sheppard itself..... if you want to play the Google Maps game, at the very least, use a map from the future?

Kipling was a single stop extension, and it isn't connected to multiple subway lines.

Having two subway lines meet at McCowan and Sheppard makes absolutely no sense.

I would've been fine with a Sheppard extension east, with a stop at STC. With the SSE, a Sheppard extension becomes redundant - certainly for the near future when we have much bigger priorities.

The map you posted looks impressive...until actually zoom and and look at the projects lol.

It's great they're being built. Unfortunately they don't come close to justifying a subway on this corridor.

In any case we're kind of OT here. It does relate to the OL though - we're consistently making the same mistakes, overbuilding where it isn't necessary, and cutting corners on critical infrastructure.

 

[syn]

The Relief Line is dead and it's not coming back. Barring some epic miracle, Ontario Line is what will be built. I don't know if anyone has noticed but the coronavirus has greatly helped Doug Ford. Before it, he was struggling in the polls but since Covid and he has made a big turnaround. I didn't vote for him last and didnt really like him but he has impressed me. For the next 2 to 3 years controlling Covid 19 is what the world will be worried about. Nobody is even talking about Del Duca or Horwarth. People see Doug Ford on TV giving them assurance in these scary times. Even look at the current polling numbers:

"A recent survey by The Angus Reid Institute found 45 per cent of decided voters said they would cast a ballot for the Progressive Conservative party, up from 36 per cent in February.

The NDP were a distant second with 25 per cent, followed by the Liberals at 22 per cent and the Greens at four per cent.

The Premier’s personal approval rating now sits at 66 per cent, according to Angus Reid, up from 31 per cent in February."

Ontario premier says no to early election despite soaring poll numbers

Ontario Premier Doug Ford is rejecting suggestions that his party will call an early election to take advantage of his soaring poll numbers thanks to his government's ongoing pandemic response.

toronto.ctvnews.ca

Del Duca who is being touted here as the saviour of the Relief Line is in a distant third. Barring some miracle in which he is able to make up all that room, I dont' see him or anyone else coming to replace Doug Ford with coronavirus dominating the world for the next two years or even more. Promising to cancel the Ontario Line to bring in the Relief Line is not going to get you any extra votes and it may even cost you votes. Let's move on. The Relief Line is dead.

I guess we'll have to see. My best guess was that they'd get two terms, and it's certainly looking that way now.

However, the next election is nearly two years away. A lot can change in 2 years.

 

[syn]

Huh? I promise you won't be able to find a reliable quote from city officials or a TTC staffer for "by 2028". Where in the world did you get that number from.... Keesmaat's mayoral election platform? She's basically the only insider who promised to find a way to get it done that quickly.

You can view this document from an April 2019 city hall meeting agenda, describing 2027 as the "mid-point" of the construction, with a completion timeline around 2030-2031.

They were planning to accelerate the process for an earlier completion date.

I'm now seeing why I thought they were at 15%:

"Further planning, design and engineering is currently underway to advance design to 15-30%. This phase of work, which includes further geotechnical investigations, development of utility relocation and property acquisition plans, analysis of project risks and project delivery/ procurement options, continues to be on target for completion in Q4 2019."

So they weren't too far off.

The document also shows the RL North was being planned.

All Ford had to do was put funding behind these projects and move them forward, instead of starting all over again.

 

[syn]

Obviously we need a Relief Line and have for some time, if we keep doing every major line as a full subway its going to take us a lot longer to build the big grid everyone wants. Plus, I think theres a strong case that having 2 smaller (but still fully grade separated) lines is better than having 1, you can get more coverage, more well distributed traffic, and maybe most importantly more overall redundancy to protect from shutdowns.

We keep building full subway lines where we don't need them, and finding excuses to not build them where we do need them.

We're in the process of making the same mistakes we've been making for decades. There should be money available to build this as a full subway line, and do it in a reasonable timeframe. I'm not seeing how the OL is getting done any faster.

I see where you're coming from with the idea of two lines, but what are the odds of another RL being proposed anytime soon? We'd still have to finish this one off after it's done.

 

[toronto647]

I guess we'll have to see. My best guess was that they'd get two terms, and it's certainly looking that way now.

However, the next election is nearly two years away. A lot can change in 2 years.

Next election will likely be in less than 2 years. More likely next spring.

 

[ARG1]

Next election will likely be in less than 2 years. More likely next spring.

I'm pretty sure he's referring to the Provincial Election which will be in mid 2022.

 

[toronto647]

I'm pretty sure he's referring to the Provincial Election which will be in mid 2022.

The provincial election is slated for mid 2022 however Ford is not going to wait that long. He's likely to call a snap election in the early spring following the results of the snap elections of BC and New Brunswick. Anybody can predict that because he will want to ride the high political favourability numbers. It would be political suicide for him to wait till mid 2022

 

[syn]

I'm pretty sure he's referring to the Provincial Election which will be in mid 2022.

You're right, that's what I was referring to.

@toronto647 has a good point though - given their standing, there is a chance Ford calls a snap election to capitalize on his current popularity.

Given the 2nd wave, however, that approach could backfire to some degree.

 

[MisterF]

I think the real win in the OL plan is showing Toronto that extensive elevated and automated (as well as more modest sized) metros are really actually quite a good option. If you look at the systems Spain built they generally followed this model and have been building stuff at a crazy pace.

If you look at how much we are spending on Eglinton and Finch, both projects would probably not be that much more to convert the at grade parts to an elevated OL style Metro (probably with shorter 4 car trains), however the quality of service would be miles ahead.

Obviously we need a Relief Line and have for some time, if we keep doing every major line as a full subway its going to take us a lot longer to build the big grid everyone wants. Plus, I think theres a strong case that having 2 smaller (but still fully grade separated) lines is better than having 1, you can get more coverage, more well distributed traffic, and maybe most importantly more overall redundancy to protect from shutdowns.

I don't think Spain supports the point you're trying to make. The metros in Madrid and Barcelona are generally underground in the central areas and above ground in outlying areas. In other words, the opposite of what Toronto is doing. If Toronto were to follow the Spanish model as you suggest, the Ontario Line would be underground through Riverdale and the Scarborough, Eglinton West, and Vaughan extensions would be above ground.

Full size trains like on Lines 1, 2, and 4 can be automated just as easily as smaller trains. Automation isn't an argument for smaller trains.

As much as I agree with this statement, what's the second line? Where is it going to go?

When the Ontario Line is overcrowded soon after it opens, the calls for a relief line relief line will start. And it will promptly get built sometime in the 2130s.

 

[afransen]

I guess we'll have to see. My best guess was that they'd get two terms, and it's certainly looking that way now.

However, the next election is nearly two years away. A lot can change in 2 years.

Indeed. A year ago Ford was less popular than Wynn when she got her drubbing in the election.