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cd concept

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The area is mostly flat land, so other than the creeks (where you'd probably see a bridge), the bridges are extra cost. A bridge in sensitive areas > earth fill in sensitive areas, but my position is still that no highway (or at least a scaled down version with stronger development protections) > bridges in sensitive areas, given that my issue with this project (and our transport policy in general) is mostly land-use.
I like preserving as much precious areas as possible. But the sprawling development has reached out to this point anyway. Which will end in the King municipality area where most of the moraine is located. And start up in Simcoe County Making this location an ideal place to build a highway westward. Just viaduct the highway over sensitive areas lol!
 

Haljackey

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I think the best solutions to protect the wetlands and main waterway areas from minimal damage. Is to either tunnel under or suspension bridge over it. To keep environmentalists etc somewhat happy and also add some character to the ravine areas.

lol the province is broke. The 413 will be an expensive project we will all be paying for over a long time. Doing this would add like 50-100x to the construction costs.

Even if price was no object, this would add to EA an construction time... not to mention they would have to find a lot more workers in the very competitive construction industry to do this... not to mention all the extra materials.

-----

Also related- the election in a nutshell

stp58iizin391.png


:p
 

robmausser

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This highway can't be anymore expensive than that 407E extension right? It was around 4B from what I can remember.

Since the main advantage of the 413 is taking trucks off the 401 (basically making the 401 less busy) the province should just look at how much it would cost over 20 years to simply pay for transport trucks to use the 407 for free, and foot the cost of the tolls. Even if its just during peak times. Like have digital signs at the 407 entrance from the 401 and say "free 407 now in effect to mitigate 401 traffic"
 

EnviroTO

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Supposedly it will be between 5 and 8 Billion dollars. The 407 (provincial portion) was about $3B ($1.6B phase 1, $1.2B phase 2) which included 412 and 418. Never understood 418... why not upgrade 115 to 415... but anyways.
 

11th

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Since the main advantage of the 413 is taking trucks off the 401 (basically making the 401 less busy) the province should just look at how much it would cost over 20 years to simply pay for transport trucks to use the 407 for free, and foot the cost of the tolls. Even if its just during peak times. Like have digital signs at the 407 entrance from the 401 and say "free 407 now in effect to mitigate 401 traffic"
Would this drive up the toll even more in the process? Province paying the tolls = more trucks using the route = more traffic = consortium raises toll (even faster)
Not sure how much the toll will increase over 20 years if that plays out. That's probably the big variable.
 

ARG1

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Would this drive up the toll even more in the process? Province paying the tolls = more trucks using the route = more traffic = consortium raises toll (even faster)
Not sure how much the toll will increase over 20 years if that plays out. That's probably the big variable.
A distinct possibility
 

innsertnamehere

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Would this drive up the toll even more in the process? Province paying the tolls = more trucks using the route = more traffic = consortium raises toll (even faster)
Not sure how much the toll will increase over 20 years if that plays out. That's probably the big variable.
That is likely exactly what would happen, particularly since trucks reduce capacity due to their slower acceleration patterns.

The 407's goal is to be free flow at rush hour - and it's basically at capacity (or at least was in 2019) on several parts of it's route for that goal. Adding a huge number of trucks to the road will significantly decrease the "paying customer" capacity not only because the trucks will take up space, but they take up proportionately more capacity than a single private vehicle does. I would fully expect 407 rates to jump even more than they were pre-COVID in that case.
 

Woodbridge_Heights

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Since the main advantage of the 413 is taking trucks off the 401 (basically making the 401 less busy) the province should just look at how much it would cost over 20 years to simply pay for transport trucks to use the 407 for free, and foot the cost of the tolls. Even if its just during peak times. Like have digital signs at the 407 entrance from the 401 and say "free 407 now in effect to mitigate 401 traffic"

That's an interesting proposal. Lower tolls on the 407 during times on congestion on the 401 in order to lower demand for the 401. My question is how do you implement it given the 407 is owned by a private entity, and has the highest tolls at times when the 401 is the most congested (am and pm peak periods)
 

innsertnamehere

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That's an interesting proposal. Lower tolls on the 407 during times on congestion on the 401 in order to lower demand for the 401. My question is how do you implement it given the 407 is owned by a private entity, and has the highest tolls at times when the 401 is the most congested (am and pm peak periods)
the myth is that the 407 is empty at rush hour and has plenty of excess capacity to absorb 401 traffic - and that's simply not true.
 

afransen

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That's an interesting proposal. Lower tolls on the 407 during times on congestion on the 401 in order to lower demand for the 401. My question is how do you implement it given the 407 is owned by a private entity, and has the highest tolls at times when the 401 is the most congested (am and pm peak periods)
Or, just wait for it, we toll the 401 to incentivize off peak travel.
 

wopchop

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the myth is that the 407 is empty at rush hour and has plenty of excess capacity to absorb 401 traffic - and that's simply not true.
The 407 is free flowing during morning and evening rush hour from QEW all the way to 404. You can easily drive this route, every day, at 120 km/h+ steady.
Sure, not empty. But definitely not "at capacity".
 

innsertnamehere

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The 407 is free flowing during morning and evening rush hour from QEW all the way to 404. You can easily drive this route, every day, at 120 km/h+ steady.
Sure, not empty. But definitely not "at capacity".
Yes, absolutely.

At least pre-covid however, stretches of the highway were more or less as full as they could be without "going over" and starting to congest, particularly between the 400 and 404.

The 407 is "full" in the sense that it's as full as it can be while retaining the "uncongested" signature it's entire brand is built around. Adding thousands of trucks to it daily would likely tip that balance and force the 407 to adjust it's toll rates to ensure it can continue to be that.

Also, it being as close to congested without actually being congested, means that it is actually effectively at it's maximum capacity. Traffic is known to actually *reduce* vehicle throughput on freeways, not increase.

That said, off peak hours still see significant congestion on the 401 and are times when the 407 has significant amounts of excess capacity. Efforts to lower the off peak tolls on the 407 would be effective in dealing with shoulder-period traffic levels. Perhaps something like "trucks can use the 407 for free outside of 7-9am and 4-7pm"
 

afransen

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407 is definitely not at capacity off peak and thus toll rates are too high.
 

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