taikou

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14-months today since Toronto City Council asked for the MZO for this site...

I think Stan Cho is doing the right thing and I appreciate him for doing it. The whole idea of building the modular housing at 175 Cummer Ave is just totally non-sense. Let's visit the place once and you will feel how ridiculous the idea it is. It's not the right location, it does not have the right facility to help the homelessness, it's not closed to any grocery stories, etc. If those people who support the idea really wants to help out, let's talk together and come up with an alternate site that would make a win-win situation for everyone.
 

myself

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I think Stan Cho is doing the right thing and I appreciate him for doing it. The whole idea of building the modular housing at 175 Cummer Ave is just totally non-sense. Let's visit the place once and you will feel how ridiculous the idea it is. It's not the right location, it does not have the right facility to help the homelessness, it's not closed to any grocery stories, etc. If those people who support the idea really wants to help out, let's talk together and come up with an alternate site that would make a win-win situation for everyone.
This is nonsense and I doubt you'll find much support here. Your claims are also complete and utter bogus.

There's a grocery store 1.2km away, which is generally pretty close, and more along the 42 bus route. There's already assisted living and medical facilities on site with the LTC beside, providing a natrual pool of resources and simplifies city property management. Furthermore, this particular modular housing is for SENIORS.

The site is also connected to frequent transit (42 Cummer) with direct subway access and is on a safer (read, not arterial) street that reduces the likelyhood of injuries to the seniors who call this place home.

Every neighbourhood has to chip in to solve the problem of homelessness in the city. You cannot make up untrue claims to try and exempt your area from participating.

175 Cummer is a fantastic site, and is absolutely the correct location.

The city is also building a community centre at Yonge and Cummer, and that will also provide great, safe facilities for 175 Cummer residents to use, that again, is quite nearby.
 

UtakataNoAnnex

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If those people who support the idea really wants to help out, let's talk together and come up with an alternate site that would make a win-win situation for everyone.
...you mean somewhere up near Moosonee win-win situation for you.
 

HousingNowTO

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I think Stan Cho is doing the right thing and I appreciate him for doing it. The whole idea of building the modular housing at 175 Cummer Ave is just totally non-sense. Let's visit the place once and you will feel how ridiculous the idea it is. It's not the right location, it does not have the right facility to help the homelessness, it's not closed to any grocery stories, etc. If those people who support the idea really wants to help out, let's talk together and come up with an alternate site that would make a win-win situation for everyone.
As expected, some Willowdale neighbourhood NIMBY group(s) have appealed the City's rezoning to the OLT - the details of who filed the appeal (and on what grounds) won't be public until the OLT documents become available in about 1-month... but our working-assumption is Bayview Cummer Neighbourhood Association (et al) have filed the appeal...

 

taikou

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This is nonsense and I doubt you'll find much support here. Your claims are also complete and utter bogus.

There's a grocery store 1.2km away, which is generally pretty close, and more along the 42 bus route. There's already assisted living and medical facilities on site with the LTC beside, providing a natrual pool of resources and simplifies city property management. Furthermore, this particular modular housing is for SENIORS.

The site is also connected to frequent transit (42 Cummer) with direct subway access and is on a safer (read, not arterial) street that reduces the likelyhood of injuries to the seniors who call this place home.

Every neighbourhood has to chip in to solve the problem of homelessness in the city. You cannot make up untrue claims to try and exempt your area from participating.

175 Cummer is a fantastic site, and is absolutely the correct location.

The city is also building a community centre at Yonge and Cummer, and that will also provide great, safe facilities for 175 Cummer residents to use, that again, is quite nearby.
I am so glad to see some responses about my comments. Sure, let's debate objectively.

1. A grocery store 1.2 km? Which one are you specifically referring to? I attached a Google map and searched all the groceries near 175 Cummer Ave. Please tell me a mainstream grocery store that can satisfy a person's day-to-day need within the walk-able distance. Please don't tell me you are referring to those very tiny grocery stores that only serve very specific type of things.

2. My friend, let's use your critical thinking. Even there is one that is really 1.2 km away, do you want all the homelessness people to take the 42 bus route to do the groceries? Keep in mind that, they are the vulnerable groups financially and you want them to pay the fares every time they do grocery? 1.2 km is not a short distance by walking especially when carrying the groceries. What about in the winter time, where there are snows everywhere, and could slip easily.

3. 42 Route - Do you know the frequency of the 42 route? Even on weekdays, it's ranging from 14 mins to 24 mins, as shown in my second attachment. Do you want them to be cold for as long as 24 minutes in the winter time waiting for bus? Why not choosing a site that is closer to the major intersection such as Finch, Steeles, Yonge, etc, where the bus frequency is much higher, and also with more bus routes (or even subway) to choose from? For example, it makes more sense for the shelter - Willowdale Welcome centre to be located at 5800 Yonge Street, as the people there have tons of choice for different transportation when they need to go somewhere.

4. False information - I am not sure where you get the idea that the modular housing is for SENIORS??? I specifically sent an email to our friend, Mr. John Filion asking if the modular housing can be prioritized for SENIOR. I am attaching his answer (Note that I only captured the portion of his answers to address this topic and removed other conversations). If Mr. John Filion can come up and guarantee that, the modular housing is for SENIORS, I would immediately apologize.

5. I agree that, IN PRINCIPLE, every neighborhood has to chip in to solve the problem of homelessness in the city, but the implementation has to be based on logic, rationale, fairness and good communication. Keep in mind that, a good intention with poor implementation plan could lead to disaster. The reality is much more complicated than you think, and some people (especially politicians) like to stand on the moral ground and point fingers to accuse others. When you ask them to contribute, they are the first one who disappear. In addition, I think the Willowdale neighborhood has contributed enough (such as the Willowdale Welcome Centre and the recent agreement at 3 Park Home Ave to host 600 refugees) to help the vulnerable. Are you aware that there are quite a lot of other neighborhoods that have done nothing so far and guess who is living in those neighborhood?

6. Community Center at Yonge and Cummer - Are you referring to the site that's currently under construction for multi-condos by Aoyuan? Do you know when the expected completion date of the community centre be? Are you aware that financially, Aoyuan is closed to bankrupt and looking to sell their asset? According to the so called ORIGINAL plan by our friends John Tory and John Filion, the modular housing should be completed on Dec 2021. If that's the case, the people living there couldn't use the center for at least 1 to 2 years (assuming the centre can be completed sometime next year, which I doubt). Why not choosing a site that has an existing community centre closed by?

I can go on and on for more reasons such as safety,etc... to elaborate why it's a ridiculous idea but I think it's enough for now. I am looking forward to your objective, fair and of course "true" arguments.
 

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taikou

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...you mean somewhere up near Moosonee win-win situation for you.
As a senior member of Urban Toronto, please come up with some valid arguments to raise the level of debate here. I really don't want to give people an impression that the senior members here only say something as low as "you mean somewhere up near Moosonee win-win situation for you". To be honest, it's really not worth for me to even reply your message.
 

Northern Light

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I am so glad to see some responses about my comments. Sure, let's debate objectively.

1. A grocery store 1.2 km? Which one are you specifically referring to? I attached a Google map and searched all the groceries near 175 Cummer Ave. Please tell me a mainstream grocery store that can satisfy a person's day-to-day need within the walk-able distance. Please don't tell me you are referring to those very tiny grocery stores that only serve very specific type of things.

Your Independent Grocer (a franchise of Loblaws) is 1.4km away on Bayview:

1660875892098.png


By the time this housing opens, there will be a full-service supermarket at M2M condos at Yonge and Cummer: 690m away. That's 2.5 bus stops or about a 15 minute walk at a leisurely pace.
(ps, the lease has been signed)

1660875993270.png


2. My friend, let's use your critical thinking. Even there is one that is really 1.2 km away, do you want all the homelessness people to take the 42 bus route to do the groceries? Keep in mind that, they are the vulnerable groups financially and you want them to pay the fares every time they do grocery? 1.2 km is not a short distance by walking especially when carrying the groceries. What about in the winter time, where there are snows everywhere, and could slip easily.

As noted above, the closest store will actually be only 700M away; that to one side, said vulnerable residents have access to free/subsidized transit trips as well.

3. 42 Route - Do you know the frequency of the 42 route? Even on weekdays, it's ranging from 14 mins to 24 mins, as shown in my second attachment. Do you want them to be cold for as long as 24 minutes in the winter time waiting for bus? Why not choosing a site that is closer to the major intersection such as Finch, Steeles, Yonge, etc, where the bus frequency is much higher, and also with more bus routes (or even subway) to choose from? For example, it makes more sense for the shelter - Willowdale Welcome centre to be located at 5800 Yonge Street, as the people there have tons of choice for different transportation when they need to go somewhere.

Many people, perhaps the majority of homeless seniors are not employed; as such they can choose to travel when the service is most frequent. But even if they could not, they can certainly choose to leave their room/unit when the bus is due, and not stand outside for any material length of time; likewise, if they know when the bus is due, they can time their departure from the supermarket to suit that.

5. I agree that, IN PRINCIPLE, every neighborhood has to chip in to solve the problem of homelessness in the city, but the implementation has to be based on logic, rationale, fairness and good communication. Keep in mind that, a good intention with poor implementation plan could lead to disaster. The reality is much more complicated than you think, and some people (especially politicians) like to stand on the moral ground and point fingers to accuse others. When you ask them to contribute, they are the first one who disappear. In addition, I think the Willowdale neighborhood has contributed enough (such as the Willowdale Welcome Centre and the recent agreement at 3 Park Home Ave to host 600 refugees) to help the vulnerable. Are you aware that there are quite a lot of other neighborhoods that have done nothing so far and guess who is living in those neighborhood?

For the record, Willowdale has below median levels of affordable housing and shelters relative to the City as a whole.

It is absolutely true that you have more such facilities that the Bridal Path or Rosedale.

I'm not sure why that is a good argument against more, in light of the pressing need.

Here's the thing, this is City owned land; aside from actual park space there are few opportunities, if any, in those other communities for a build on City-owned property.

Those areas should, absolutely receive a share of such housing; and by all means I would encourage you to advocate for that. It would, of course, be more costly, and encounter at least as much opposition as you are putting forward
from people with even more money. That's not a statement to let them off the hook; but rather a suggestion, if members of your community and prepared to fight tooth and nail against this, and spend their personal money to do so; imagine the fight with billionaires.

Perhaps your community could instead be a role model on such things, and then, from the moral high ground, call out those communities not doing their share.

6. Community Center at Yonge and Cummer - Are you referring to the site that's currently under construction for multi-condos by Aoyuan? Do you know when the expected completion date of the community centre be? Are you aware that financially, Aoyuan is closed to bankrupt and looking to sell their asset? According to the so called ORIGINAL plan by our friends John Tory and John Filion, the modular housing should be completed on Dec 2021. If that's the case, the people living there couldn't use the center for at least 1 to 2 years (assuming the centre can be completed sometime next year, which I doubt). Why not choosing a site that has an existing community centre closed by?

M2M condos are financially sound and construction is proceeding apace. The community centre will be built. If you have evidence to the contrary, kindly present that.

I can go on and on for more reasons such as safety,etc... to elaborate why it's a ridiculous idea but I think it's enough for now. I am looking forward to your objective, fair and of course "true" arguments.

Do go on, if you wish, but if you do, please provide evidence in support of each problem or challenge you bring forward so we can discuss it properly.

******

One last note.............that may surprise you since you seem to be new here...........

There are relatively few members here more open to a frank discussion of self-interest than I. I'm a big believer in social responsibility and environmental stewardship, but I'm also very practical about people having self-interest......whether I like it or not in any given situation, because I do to, we all do. And I get where people have concerns of one type or another.

But where I lack patience is when those self-interested concerns are either exaggerated or mis-represented as something other than what they are.....

If you said you didn't like the look of the place (I think its ok) but I could understand that..........However,.you know, for what the neighbourhood will spend fighting this, you could pay for nicer
finishes or landscaping.

If you said you were concerned that any new residents receive the initial support they need to succeed, for the price of the legal and planning fees you could likely pay for an extra social worker for a year.

Putting aside that local grocery will be relatively close.......I don't suppose you would support any local rezoning to create a closer grocery store?

Alternatively, assuming people were prepared to consider an alternate site nearby of equal or greater quality..........and assuming the City doesn't currently own such a site, would you be prepared to fundraise the cost of purchasing such a site?

*****

I'll conclude in saying, I don't think this is an optimal site, for such housing, in a perfect world. But I would then acknowledge, this isn't a perfect world, and it's a suitable site which can meet the needs of its new residents without undue adverse effect on the community.

Holding this up; when you're going to lose anyway (which you will)......really serves no good purpose. It simply costs your community money while delaying housing for those who desperately need it.
 
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UtakataNoAnnex

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As a senior member of Urban Toronto, please come up with some valid arguments to raise the level of debate here. I really don't want to give people an impression that the senior members here only say something as low as "you mean somewhere up near Moosonee win-win situation for you". To be honest, it's really not worth for me to even reply your message.
And yet here you are replying to my response for the tone arguing. Thus I can only assume in your *"seniority" that there was some value to my reply. And one where you unlikely had an adequate answer to...

...that said, allow me to point out the elephants in the room since you missed it in my hint:

1) There is no such thing as a perfect location when it comes to the needs of affordable housing. That's not the point of why they're designated to any given site nor should it be, particularly in an urban setting. They are put it there instead, because there is a need for them. And desperately so.

2) I can see where this is all going...you make the argument that there needs to be a discussion as you claim on the potential occupants' behalf it's not suitable for them. And debate with them what that is in the compromise. But once they've stated what it is they're looking for, you'll then counter argue that's not good enough. And debate with them again to see what is, only to disagree with them again. Rinse and repeat. At this point you are starting to look like that character from that diner scene in The Sandman who always looking for what truth is, but never really satisfied with the answers...

...because ultimately, you really don't want these people to set up a home near your neighbourhood. So nothing is really satisfactory to you. And I suspect you are quite aware of that.

So turning the projecting around, thus I think it's a waste of time personally in debating with you over this...because you already know what the answer is. That is, not in my backyard. No siree!

*Note: Your avatar claims you only started posting here 24 hrs. ago. /shrug
 
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ADRM

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I agree that, IN PRINCIPLE, every neighborhood has to chip in to solve the problem of homelessness in the city, but the implementation has to be based on logic, rationale, fairness and good communication.

"Of COURSE, affordable housing should be built in the city, but just Not In My Back Yard, because REASONS."

What is it about this neck of the woods that just seems to bring out some of the most selfish, entitled residents in the city?
 

taikou

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Nice to meet you, Northern Light! I really like to hear constructive arguments and let me express my appreciation for providing your opinions, regardless our difference on how we perceive this matter.

1. "Your Independent Grocer (a franchise of Loblaws) is 1.4km away on Bayview" - My friend, as I mentioned, for walking, don't you think 1.4 KM is TOO FAR for the homelessness to get groceries? From Google, it takes 21 minutes for walking and for both ways it means 42 minutes. For taking bus, it is slightly better but do you want them to pay the fare every single time they have to do grocery, despite the inconvenience of taking the infrequent 42 bus route as well as their financial status? From the TTC website, there is a so called Fair Pass Transit Discount Program, which at most can reduce 33% of the fare with a bunch of restrictions such as age etc, so some people may not even qualified for the discount. For long term, this amount is still considerably big and is a huge financial burden for them.

2. "By the time this housing opens, there will be a full-service supermarket at M2M condos at Yonge and Cummer: 690m away" - My friend, I am not sure if you purposely ignore a fact! The fact is, the City and our lovely politicians, John Tory and John Filion first proposed this "fantastic" idea on Feb 2021, and they plan to go through the MZO (thus no appeal is allowed if succeed) and get everything done on Dec 2021. If that's the case, do you think they can still go to this so called future full service supermarket? Do you have the timeline where this supermarket will be done? Do you want them to be starved for 1.5 years at least? or take all the inconvenience and go to the one you mentioned that is 1.4km away? To be honest, do you really believe in Mr. John Filion's claimed that, he spent 1 year of research, and find out it's the BEST site to build the modular housing, among all the City-owned land? I highly doubt it. Furthermore, I remember he even mentioned there is a subway extension planned north of Finch, and there WILL be a subway station at Yonge and Cummer. As we all know, we would be lucky to see it completed within 10 years and as far as I know, they already plan to cancel the Cummer station for budgetary reason. My point is, too much FUTURE commitment, but what about NOW? Why can't we assess based on what we currently have, as it's the most concrete things we have in hands. The future is full of variables and could be changed anytime.

OKAY.. even there will be a FULL service supermarket at Cummer and Yonge. You have any details? Is it a high end grocery like Loblaws or the budget one such as Food Basics or No Frills? The homelessness are struggling financially, do you think they can afford to buy the items if it's one of the high end that will be built? It is a realistic problem that everyone has to think about. You may say, well, they will be subsidized. But my question is, where is the money is coming from? From you and me, taxpayers! I think the City has the responsibility to use our money as effective as possible. Agree? Why we can't choose another site that currently has more different brands of groceries, so it's going to be more affordable for them?

One more point - The supporters of this project keep saying, the upcoming M2M condo development WILL have a supermarket, community centre and so on to serve the homelessness. If you guys take the future facilities into consideration (which I don't prefer to do), I want to ask all of you, have you guys considered the interest of these future M2M residents? They are the important stakeholders of these facilities as well, and I feel it's so unfair to them, as they didn't EXPECT the modular housing to be there when they bought the pre-constructed condo a few years ago. This violates the principle of procedural justice.

3. "Many people, perhaps the majority of homeless seniors are not employed" - First of all, let me emphasize again. This modular housing is not intended for SENIORs only!! It has been confirmed by Mr. John Filion and to be honest, if they can promise it's designed for seniors, I think the community would be more likely to accept this idea, at least for me. I think your phrase should be changed to ""Many people, perhaps the majority of homeless ARE NOT EMPLOYED" Since you brought up this topic, let's talk about employment then. Frankly speaking, I am an ordinary person that I have to work hard and overcome many challenges to make a living. I also have my priorities of helping people as well, from my family first, friends next, colleagues so on and then to the community. My philosophy is, I am very willing to help the seniors, families with children, people with physical disabilities or illness. No doubt about it. HOWEVER, I have to say, for those that are healthy, capable of working, just because they are lazy, and give up themselves, sorry, I don't welcome them here. There are tons of opportunities in the job market (as a matter of fact, a lot of industries are hiring), and I believe, an ordinary adult without serious health issue can get a job and come out of homelessness. I believe that, you have to show your determination to help yourself in order to deserve the help from others. I don't want to generalize, but there are indeed some people taking the social assistance for granted, and sounds like the community owes them something and thus have to help them forever. I find this attitude disgusting. Don't quote me on being cruel or discriminating. Nevertheless, I don't plan to write an essay here, but hope you get my point, so in conclusion, if our lovely friends, Mr John Tory and Mr John Filion can promise to say, this modular housing will only be allocated to the groups I mentioned, seniors, families with children, people with physical disabilities or illness, I would stand on your side. If not, maybe you can consider to stand up on my side?

4. "For the record, Willowdale has below median levels of affordable housing and shelters relative to the City as a whole." - Very interesting. Which record shows that? Please provide a trustworthy report to support your claim.

5. "It is absolutely true that you have more such facilities that the Bridal Path or Rosedale." - I am not sure what kinds of facilities you are referring here to? Medical? Recreational? In addition, I don't understand your logic of bringing up Bridal Path or Rosedale. There are tens of communities in Toronto, so why bringing up these two?

6. "I'm not sure why that is a good argument against more, in light of the pressing need." - I thought the reason of obvious. Theoretically and logically, more does not always mean better. A GOOD BALANCE is the best and of course the question is, where is the good balance. But as a principle, you can't simply say, MORE is always better, as there are other factors to be considered for any issue. Give you an analogy, Canada NEED more people/human resources for obvious reasons. I am sure you won't agree to say, let's get more and more immigrants immediately as the MORE, the better in light of the pressing need. We need to achieve a BALANCE, my friend!

I think it's quite a lot of writing for now and I will add more points later, and elaborate why it's very reasonable for the community to be skeptical about the project, due to lack of transparency, respect, and communication to the stakeholders of the community. The city has demonstrated a full arrogance and the stubbornness from their attitude... to be continued
 

taikou

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"Of COURSE, affordable housing should be built in the city, but just Not In My Back Yard, because REASONS."

What is it about this neck of the woods that just seems to bring out some of the most selfish, entitled residents in the city?
It's such a tragedy some people don't have any critical thinking. They are tempted to find ONE reason to criticize all the opinions and ideas they don't like. They think they understand everyone and everything, but sadly they are just frogs in a well!
 

Northern Light

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Nice to meet you, Northern Light! I really like to hear constructive arguments and let me express my appreciation for providing your opinions, regardless our difference on how we perceive this matter.

1. "Your Independent Grocer (a franchise of Loblaws) is 1.4km away on Bayview" - My friend, as I mentioned, for walking, don't you think 1.4 KM is TOO FAR for the homelessness to get groceries? From Google, it takes 21 minutes for walking and for both ways it means 42 minutes. For taking bus, it is slightly better but do you want them to pay the fare every single time they have to do grocery, despite the inconvenience of taking the infrequent 42 bus route as well as their financial status? From the TTC website, there is a so called Fair Pass Transit Discount Program, which at most can reduce 33% of the fare with a bunch of restrictions such as age etc, so some people may not even qualified for the discount. For long term, this amount is still considerably big and is a huge financial burden for them.

Average walking speed for humans is in the range of 4.5km/ph:

1661157204962.png


So the walking time estimate you provide is reasonable.

Is it 'Too Far' ?

No.

Its not ideal; though as separately noted there will be a supermarket 1/2 that distance at the corner of Yonge/Cummer.

But you know how you keep hearing about the need for every person to walk 10,000 steps per day, on average, to say healthy? That's 8km.

So 1.4km (2.8km round trip) is only 35% of what one should walk every day. Clearly this would be a burden on someone who is disabled, but they will access Wheel Trans or the regular TTC. Clearly this would be a burden
for a large suburban family doing one bulk shop a week. But for a person who will be shopping for one person, living in one room, likely 3-4x per week, it is not that burdensome for the majority.

Again, most will access a supermarket that is closer.


2. "By the time this housing opens, there will be a full-service supermarket at M2M condos at Yonge and Cummer: 690m away" - My friend, I am not sure if you purposely ignore a fact! The fact is, the City and our lovely politicians, John Tory and John Filion first proposed this "fantastic" idea on Feb 2021, and they plan to go through the MZO (thus no appeal is allowed if succeed) and get everything done on Dec 2021. If that's the case, do you think they can still go to this so called future full service supermarket? Do you have the timeline where this supermarket will be done?

I discuss the 1.4 km, status quo that would have been in place for 18 months had the rapid housing hit its timeline (which would have been a miracle, but I digress); above.

Do you want them to be starved for 1.5 years at least?

No one would have starved, and this type of hyperbole detracts from your argument.

OKAY.. even there will be a FULL service supermarket at Cummer and Yonge.

There will be.

You have any details?

I do, but I'm not sharing them, yet. But you won't have to wait long, the details will be public VERY soon.

Is it a high end grocery like Loblaws or the budget one such as Food Basics or No Frills?

I'm not going to get ahead of the press release.

The homelessness are struggling financially, do you think they can afford to buy the items if it's one of the high end that will be built? It is a realistic problem that everyone has to think about. You may say, well, they will be subsidized. But my question is, where is the money is coming from? From you and me, taxpayers! I think the City has the responsibility to use our money as effective as possible. Agree? Why we can't choose another site that currently has more different brands of groceries, so it's going to be more affordable for them?

Using this argument, Rapid Housing and TCHC can only be built in areas that already have a high concentration of low-income people. You will never achieve ' Balance' in this way. Instead, areas already facing economic challenges will face more challenges, and areas with few challenges will face no additional burdens.

I do not accept this premise.

For many who will reside here, they will choose to take transit to the supermarket, irrespective of the walking distances involved, if they would prefer/need to shop at a hard discount store, the Cummer bus will take them to Finch Station, where a 2-stop trip south will afford them access to Food Basics or they can transfer to the Yonge Bus at Cummer to travel just over 1km north to access No Frills.

And yes, this is perfectly reasonable, a middle-income person, who owns a car, and has supermarkets in my own area, I routinely drive to get larger, bulkier, and basic supplies in my own neighbourhood, but I regularly take transit downtown, from East York, so I can shop at St. Lawrence Market, ~15 stops away.
 
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Northern Light

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One more point - The supporters of this project keep saying, the upcoming M2M condo development WILL have a supermarket, community centre and so on to serve the homelessness. If you guys take the future facilities into consideration (which I don't prefer to do), I want to ask all of you, have you guys considered the interest of these future M2M residents? They are the important stakeholders of these facilities as well, and I feel it's so unfair to them, as they didn't EXPECT the modular housing to be there when they bought the pre-constructed condo a few years ago. This violates the principle of procedural justice.

This is a really bad take.

Let me get this straight, anyone who chooses to buy a home in any neighbourhood is entitled to no one new living within 1km of them, particularly if they are low-income?

This City is growing by ~80,000 people per year; everyone will get new and more neighbours.

If some of them happen to be lower income, so what?

The new Community Recreation Centre, owned by the City is for everyone in the community and will certainly be well patronized by a cross-section of the community.

3. "Many people, perhaps the majority of homeless seniors are not employed" - First of all, let me emphasize again. This modular housing is not intended for SENIORs only!! It has been confirmed by Mr. John Filion and to be honest, if they can promise it's designed for seniors, I think the community would be more likely to accept this idea, at least for me. I think your phrase should be changed to ""Many people, perhaps the majority of homeless ARE NOT EMPLOYED" Since you brought up this topic, let's talk about employment then. Frankly speaking, I am an ordinary person that I have to work hard and overcome many challenges to make a living. I also have my priorities of helping people as well, from my family first, friends next, colleagues so on and then to the community. My philosophy is, I am very willing to help the seniors, families with children, people with physical disabilities or illness. No doubt about it. HOWEVER, I have to say, for those that are healthy, capable of working, just because they are lazy, and give up themselves, sorry, I don't welcome them here. There are tons of opportunities in the job market (as a matter of fact, a lot of industries are hiring), and I believe, an ordinary adult without serious health issue can get a job and come out of homelessness. I believe that, you have to show your determination to help yourself in order to deserve the help from others. I don't want to generalize, but there are indeed some people taking the social assistance for granted, and sounds like the community owes them something and thus have to help them forever. I find this attitude disgusting. Don't quote me on being cruel or discriminating. Nevertheless, I don't plan to write an essay here, but hope you get my point, so in conclusion, if our lovely friends, Mr John Tory and Mr John Filion can promise to say, this modular housing will only be allocated to the groups I mentioned, seniors, families with children, people with physical disabilities or illness, I would stand on your side. If not, maybe you can consider to stand up on my side?

Yah, this is not a good take either.

I totally get the impulse to want others to be self-reliant; but that's where any shared values would seem to end.

Lets be clear, few people, if any would choose the hardships associated with being homeless or on Social Assistance if they remotely felt they had a choice.

This is not someone living the good life and sending you the bill; this is someone struggling to survive, compassion is the appropriate response.

****

Let me offer two quick takes to see if they stir any empathy in you...........

1) The average person in Ontario, on Social Assistance is off Social Assistance within 1 year. Given the serious barriers someone who is so low-income as to qualify for Social Assistance faces, this is really quite remarkable and speaks
to how most people just need a hand up.

2) The barrier to self-sufficiency is far greater than you imagine. I want you to contemplate this for one moment.

- You have no bank account
- You have only whatever cash on you that you could scrounge, perhaps $40
- You have no fridge, no stove, so all you can eat is prepared food (ie fast food)
- You, on average, did not gradate High School for whatever reason, but regardless, being homeless, have no proof you graduated, and no resumes
- You have poor or no access to showers/baths, can't afford cologne, or a hair cut
- You may not have any government ID
- You probably don't have a phone, and certainly no computer, making it very difficult for you to job search, but even harder to apply, and harder still yet for a prospective employer to reach you with a job offer.
- If you got a full-time, minimum wage job in Toronto paying $15 per hour, you could not afford market rent in the City. You would take home ~$2,100 per month after taxes. Even finding an apartment that ate 100% of your income
would be a challenge, but doing that and affording food, a phone, the cost of getting to/from work would be a virtual impossibility.

Finally, let me ask this; if you are so very resistant to providing someone in need a place to live near your home, are you the one offering them a job? Really, tell the truth now.

4. "For the record, Willowdale has below median levels of affordable housing and shelters relative to the City as a whole." - Very interesting. Which record shows that? Please provide a trustworthy report to support your claim.

I do indeed have such trustworthy report, 2 of them actually:

1661160106645.png


Source: https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/8e5c-Maps.pdf

As you can see, Willowdale has 2 shelters, one permanent, one temporary that are entirely within its borders, and one permanent facility on the border with the Don Valley West Ward.

By facility count and bed count this is roughly median for the City; though well below many other areas.

For instance, Scarborough South-West has six facilities, the Rapid Housing which just opened is also not counted in this list.

University-Rosedale, the ward, has 9 such facilities,

Spadina Fortyork - 16

Toronto Centre -24

*****

Then we add in public housing controlled by TCHC:

1661160163381.png

To be fair here, most people would define 'Willowdale as east of Yonge, to Leslie and the 401 to Steeles. Using that definition as opposed to TCHC unit map, we get 3 facilities.

Compare that with the concentration along Warden Avenue in Scarborough South-West, or along Eglinton at Brimley:

1661160215972.png




Or, the area just east of downtown:

1661160247018.png


When taken together (sheltlers + TCHC) Willowdale the neighbourhood clearly has few such facilities than many other areas throughout the City; though it does clearly have more than some.

Source: https://www.torontohousing.ca/our-housing

5. "It is absolutely true that you have more such facilities that the Bridal Path or Rosedale." - I am not sure what kinds of facilities you are referring here to? Medical? Recreational? In addition, I don't understand your logic of bringing up Bridal Path or Rosedale. There are tens of communities in Toronto, so why bringing up these two?

They are the two richest communities with 'old 'money' and 'new money' alongside Forest Hill.

6. "I'm not sure why that is a good argument against more, in light of the pressing need." - I thought the reason of obvious. Theoretically and logically, more does not always mean better. A GOOD BALANCE is the best and of course the question is, where is the good balance. But as a principle, you can't simply say, MORE is always better, as there are other factors to be considered for any issue. Give you an analogy, Canada NEED more people/human resources for obvious reasons. I am sure you won't agree to say, let's get more and more immigrants immediately as the MORE, the better in light of the pressing need. We need to achieve a BALANCE, my friend!

There is no balance where some people, about 10,000 would be left outside to sleep because there is no indoor bed available to them.

And your balance would preclude any new housing for such people anywhere.

The arguments you can, would, and are made by opponents of such projects in every community.

***

In one part of your post, you essentially argue this project would be better on Yonge Street, but in the next breath argue how unfair that would be to residents of the not yet finished M2M condo.

Which is it?

I think it's quite a lot of writing for now and I will add more points later, and elaborate why it's very reasonable for the community to be skeptical about the project, due to lack of transparency, respect, and communication to the stakeholders of the community. The city has demonstrated a full arrogance and the stubbornness from their attitude... to be continued

Really?

Lets review, shall we.

You know what will be built.
You know what it will look like.
You know how tall it will be and where it will be situated.
You know who is building it.
You know who its designed to help.

Is there any additional transparency that is likely to shift your point of view?
 
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Kenojuak

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Nice to meet you, Northern Light! I really like to hear constructive arguments and let me express my appreciation for providing your opinions, regardless our difference on how we perceive this matter.

1. "Your Independent Grocer (a franchise of Loblaws) is 1.4km away on Bayview" - My friend, as I mentioned, for walking, don't you think 1.4 KM is TOO FAR for the homelessness to get groceries? From Google, it takes 21 minutes for walking and for both ways it means 42 minutes. For taking bus, it is slightly better but do you want them to pay the fare every single time they have to do grocery, despite the inconvenience of taking the infrequent 42 bus route as well as their financial status? From the TTC website, there is a so called Fair Pass Transit Discount Program, which at most can reduce 33% of the fare with a bunch of restrictions such as age etc, so some people may not even qualified for the discount. For long term, this amount is still considerably big and is a huge financial burden for them.

2. "By the time this housing opens, there will be a full-service supermarket at M2M condos at Yonge and Cummer: 690m away" - My friend, I am not sure if you purposely ignore a fact! The fact is, the City and our lovely politicians, John Tory and John Filion first proposed this "fantastic" idea on Feb 2021, and they plan to go through the MZO (thus no appeal is allowed if succeed) and get everything done on Dec 2021. If that's the case, do you think they can still go to this so called future full service supermarket? Do you have the timeline where this supermarket will be done? Do you want them to be starved for 1.5 years at least? or take all the inconvenience and go to the one you mentioned that is 1.4km away? To be honest, do you really believe in Mr. John Filion's claimed that, he spent 1 year of research, and find out it's the BEST site to build the modular housing, among all the City-owned land? I highly doubt it. Furthermore, I remember he even mentioned there is a subway extension planned north of Finch, and there WILL be a subway station at Yonge and Cummer. As we all know, we would be lucky to see it completed within 10 years and as far as I know, they already plan to cancel the Cummer station for budgetary reason. My point is, too much FUTURE commitment, but what about NOW? Why can't we assess based on what we currently have, as it's the most concrete things we have in hands. The future is full of variables and could be changed anytime.

OKAY.. even there will be a FULL service supermarket at Cummer and Yonge. You have any details? Is it a high end grocery like Loblaws or the budget one such as Food Basics or No Frills? The homelessness are struggling financially, do you think they can afford to buy the items if it's one of the high end that will be built? It is a realistic problem that everyone has to think about. You may say, well, they will be subsidized. But my question is, where is the money is coming from? From you and me, taxpayers! I think the City has the responsibility to use our money as effective as possible. Agree? Why we can't choose another site that currently has more different brands of groceries, so it's going to be more affordable for them?

One more point - The supporters of this project keep saying, the upcoming M2M condo development WILL have a supermarket, community centre and so on to serve the homelessness. If you guys take the future facilities into consideration (which I don't prefer to do), I want to ask all of you, have you guys considered the interest of these future M2M residents? They are the important stakeholders of these facilities as well, and I feel it's so unfair to them, as they didn't EXPECT the modular housing to be there when they bought the pre-constructed condo a few years ago. This violates the principle of procedural justice.

3. "Many people, perhaps the majority of homeless seniors are not employed" - First of all, let me emphasize again. This modular housing is not intended for SENIORs only!! It has been confirmed by Mr. John Filion and to be honest, if they can promise it's designed for seniors, I think the community would be more likely to accept this idea, at least for me. I think your phrase should be changed to ""Many people, perhaps the majority of homeless ARE NOT EMPLOYED" Since you brought up this topic, let's talk about employment then. Frankly speaking, I am an ordinary person that I have to work hard and overcome many challenges to make a living. I also have my priorities of helping people as well, from my family first, friends next, colleagues so on and then to the community. My philosophy is, I am very willing to help the seniors, families with children, people with physical disabilities or illness. No doubt about it. HOWEVER, I have to say, for those that are healthy, capable of working, just because they are lazy, and give up themselves, sorry, I don't welcome them here. There are tons of opportunities in the job market (as a matter of fact, a lot of industries are hiring), and I believe, an ordinary adult without serious health issue can get a job and come out of homelessness. I believe that, you have to show your determination to help yourself in order to deserve the help from others. I don't want to generalize, but there are indeed some people taking the social assistance for granted, and sounds like the community owes them something and thus have to help them forever. I find this attitude disgusting. Don't quote me on being cruel or discriminating. Nevertheless, I don't plan to write an essay here, but hope you get my point, so in conclusion, if our lovely friends, Mr John Tory and Mr John Filion can promise to say, this modular housing will only be allocated to the groups I mentioned, seniors, families with children, people with physical disabilities or illness, I would stand on your side. If not, maybe you can consider to stand up on my side?

4. "For the record, Willowdale has below median levels of affordable housing and shelters relative to the City as a whole." - Very interesting. Which record shows that? Please provide a trustworthy report to support your claim.

5. "It is absolutely true that you have more such facilities that the Bridal Path or Rosedale." - I am not sure what kinds of facilities you are referring here to? Medical? Recreational? In addition, I don't understand your logic of bringing up Bridal Path or Rosedale. There are tens of communities in Toronto, so why bringing up these two?

6. "I'm not sure why that is a good argument against more, in light of the pressing need." - I thought the reason of obvious. Theoretically and logically, more does not always mean better. A GOOD BALANCE is the best and of course the question is, where is the good balance. But as a principle, you can't simply say, MORE is always better, as there are other factors to be considered for any issue. Give you an analogy, Canada NEED more people/human resources for obvious reasons. I am sure you won't agree to say, let's get more and more immigrants immediately as the MORE, the better in light of the pressing need. We need to achieve a BALANCE, my friend!

I think it's quite a lot of writing for now and I will add more points later, and elaborate why it's very reasonable for the community to be skeptical about the project, due to lack of transparency, respect, and communication to the stakeholders of the community. The city has demonstrated a full arrogance and the stubbornness from their attitude... to be continued
What a bunch of malarkey
 

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