taal

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
6,699
Reaction score
180
I wouldn't be surprised to see another hullmark like development here, with offices only because the city would enforce as much. A full fledged office building would be impressive to say the least but would surprise me !

I think you'll see tenants who are already located in NYCC or other 416 but non-downtown nodes relocate downtown particularly if rents fall. A very recent example announced here on UT, ' Penguin Random House Canada' which seems to be relocating downtown from Y&E into 320 Front.
 

sunnyraytoronto

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 12, 2009
Messages
1,956
Reaction score
908
earth sampling truck was on site last week..


Yeap,... Ahmedyusali is correct! At the beginning of the month, for an entire week, they were drilling earth samples throughout the entire site. See attached photo of the drilling truck,...

The big question is why,... maybe a land sale or prep for development application,...

They drill for a number of reasons including to figure out if an environmental cleanup is required (keep in mind the entire site is paved over as a parking lot now) or want to determine exactly where underground water table is present if they have to dig deep. BTW, EmeraldPark site directly south has 6 floors deep of underground parking - deepest in NYCC. If a major development happens at 4800 Yonge, the required underground parking might have to go even deeper than EmeraldPark since about a third of the site host the TTC eastbound Sheppard to southbound Yonge subway turning tunnel, see last image (Yonge looking north from Poyntz) - thus, the top 75 feet of soil would be clean refill soil put in when they constructed those subway tunnels in the late 1990s.

See 1st photo, notice blank podium wall of Nestle Building,... new building podium only need to connect though this blank Nestle Building podium wall for coveted direct indoor subway connection and piggy back off the existing indoor subway connection that Nestle Building has - instead of doing what Tridel HullmarkCentre did at their north TTC entrance which delayed their North Tower by a year.

See attached photos of what used to be on this lot,... 2nd photo from 1934 shows Sheppard Ave (Lansing Side Road) looking west at Yonge shows what seems to be a small gas station,... then there was a car dealership,... and housing stock,.... 3rd photo from 1980s show commercial stores plaza,... I do remember a bunker type BMO bank southwest corner of Yonge & Sheppard in early 1990s,... Ok, so maybe some environmental clean up required from former gas station, car dealership,... and that greasy spoon known as Orange Bowl then Bogert Restaurant!

The site is currently zoned for commercial office usage only as per original OMERS plan - Nestle Building twin tower. The Oxford Properties rendering from June 2010,... shows a building with 3 distinct sections,... a mix-use development. It was floated as 25 storey but Nestle Building which is all office has 21 storey and fits within the former 100m height limit,... the only way you could fit in 25 storey within 100m is to put in some shorter non-office floors,... but now 100m height limit is gone anyways,...

What are your thoughts on this,...
 

Attachments

  • IMG_3438[1].JPG
    IMG_3438[1].JPG
    1.7 MB · Views: 1,353
  • YongeSheppardWest1934.jpg
    YongeSheppardWest1934.jpg
    57.7 KB · Views: 1,284
  • YongeBogert_1970sNW.jpg
    YongeBogert_1970sNW.jpg
    62.9 KB · Views: 1,270
  • SheppardSubwayWYE.jpg
    SheppardSubwayWYE.jpg
    40.2 KB · Views: 1,318
Last edited:

pipolchap

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
138
Reaction score
50
Just wanted to let people here know that I saw that truck doing its thing on the private parking lot, just west of Albert Standing Park. This is located SW of Beecroft Rd and Sheppard Ave W.

Does this mean anything?
 

sunnyraytoronto

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 12, 2009
Messages
1,956
Reaction score
908
Just wanted to let people here know that I saw that truck doing its thing on the private parking lot, just west of Albert Standing Park. This is located SW of Beecroft Rd and Sheppard Ave W.

Does this mean anything?

When and for how many days was that truck there? Same yellow drilling truck? Photos???
 

pipolchap

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
138
Reaction score
50
When and for how many days was that truck there? Same yellow drilling truck? Photos???

Yes, same looking truck on Feb 23 or 26. The only reason I recognized it was after seeing your photo.
It may have been there for more days, but I have no way of knowing since I don't pass by there daily.
Sorry, no photo.
 
Last edited:

sunnyraytoronto

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 12, 2009
Messages
1,956
Reaction score
908
Just wanted to let people here know that I saw that truck doing its thing on the private parking lot, just west of Albert Standing Park. This is located SW of Beecroft Rd and Sheppard Ave W.

Does this mean anything?


Does this mean anything,... definitely,.... maybe!!!!


First of all, this whole post is just pure speculation,... and I'm sure some readers will be saying this BS has more validity than some of the regular stuff I post! Anyways,....

What we do know is a drill truck was taking soil samples throughout the lot at 4800 Yonge for about a week in early February,...each day there was 3 guys taking and testing samples with a large duffle bag full of sample testing kits (it might be the condition for a development application or land sale),... so lets say it takes a week or 2 to get all the test results in and analyzed,... assume everything looks good in that there's no major environmental cleanup required and water table level are fine,... remember subway turning tunnel takes up about a 1/3 of the property - restricting how much parking they can have on-site unless they dig really deep! Lets say everything at 4800 Yonge tested fine,... so what's next phase? Test that private parking lot on Sheppard just west of Albert Standing Park,... why?

It could be pure coincidences, that the owner of the private parking lot on Sheppard (where hand cursor is on attached photo) just west of Albert Standing Park decided to have his lot tested as well,... again, it might be condition for another development application or land sale,...

That private parking lot on Sheppard just west of Albert Standing Park is a very very interesting piece of property,.... during the previous municipal election, the property owner also owns a number of other properties along Sheppard West allowed part of the property in question to be the campaign office of the unsuccessful candidate,... who in-turn was very pro-development - endorsed high density development along Sheppard West and pro-Sheppard West Subway,... it was a very ugly dirty campaign, especially towards the end. When the yellow drill truck was there, what happened to all the cars that usually park there during the day??? Technically, that property may not be properly zoned for commercial parking,.. but it seems the property owner is letting his "friends" park there,... lots of friends,...

Anyways,... this is where it gets interesting,... there's a number of property investors who for lack of a better term,... "play monopoly" in NYCC,... some of the better monopoly players accumulate adjacent lots to build up larger parcel of land,... the lots in question seems to be of this type,... I suspect its actually consists of a few adjacent lots along Sheppard immediately west of Albert Standing Park and also a few adjacent lots on Bogert as well. Once they manage to accumulate a decent size parcel of land they could develop on that land themselves or usually they just sell to a big developer. The big developer could acquire those large lot for development or for Section 37 community benefit purposes.

Another property investor brought up most of the west side of Bonnington,... this is where Doris Avenue service road could be extended south of Sheppard to Avondale. Property investor has offered to sell to city but city has refused to buy at that price,.. so property investor/developer proposing a development to force the city hand,... city has already acquired a couple of properties on Bonnington as part of Section 37 from HullmarkCentre.

Anyways,... If it's the same truck doing the drilling and testing,... it's probably the same company hiring them,.. at two different but relatively close sites. It's not likely the developer will develop a building at 4800 Yonge that somehow goes through the Nestle Building and over Beecroft Road and over Albert Standing Park to another new building on the site in question,... though that would be an interesting development that'll make EmeraldPark look normal!

In addition, that lot west of Albert Standing Park is west of Beecroft and thus outside of the North York Secondary Plan area,... thus, no large 100m high development allowed,... only 4-5 storey max on Sheppard West. Thus, likely usage there is Section 37 parkland "donation". It's likely that this lot would be used as the 4800 Yonge Street development's Section 37 community benefit "donation" to the city for park land expansion of the existing Albert Standing Park.

When Nestle Building was built in early 1990's, Section 37 benefits included such land "donation" for the extension of Beecroft Road south of Sheppard to Poyntz and creation of Albert Standing Park, closing off Bogert Avenue between Beecroft & Frizzle Rd along with Frizzle Rd between Bogert & Sheppard and converting those land to parkland (see aerial map from 1983 VS 1992 when Nestle building under construction). As such, Lansing United Church became,... the church-in-the-park. The current Albert Standing Park really acts as a parkette instead of a park,... no room for children playground,... just sitting area and water fountains - one has been disabled and is now a large growing pot! Note: Albert Standing Park is just on the other side of Beecroft Road from the Nestle building development, so office workers from Nestle building can enjoy this Section 37 benefit as well as the local community.

1983
http://jpeg2000.eloquent-systems.com/toronto.html?image=ser12/s0012_fl1983_it0050n.jp2

1992
http://jpeg2000.eloquent-systems.com/toronto.html?image=ser12/s0012_fl1992_it0050n.jp2

In addition, the EmeraldPark development Section 37 includes rebuild of Lansing United Church (just south of Albert Standing Park) to include Community Centre facilities as part of density and height transfer,.... again, this Section 37 benefit at Lansing United Church is just on the other side of Beecroft Road from the EmeraldPark development.

Will the Section 37 benefits for 4800 Yonge Street also be just on the other side of Beecroft Road?,... as in an expansion of Albert Standing Park???

So why drilling and testing soil at both sites? 4800 Yonge drilling for water table to figure our how deep parking level could go and how many parking spots economically (so they can determine office VS condo mix) and drilling at potential Section 37 site west of Albert Standing Park because city certainly don't want land requiring expensive environmental cleanup.

The OMERS land at 4800 Yonge was originally to be Nestle Building twin tower and up-zoned for commercial office but stalled and the project did not proceed. If in fact the developer of 4800 Yonge is now preparing Section 37 benefit package for the city, is that Section 37 package for building an office tower as originally planned and zoned for OR do they require further up-zoning? Keep in mind, Section 37 community benefits are only required when development requires zoning changes. The more zoning changes the more section 37 benefits.

Keep in mind,... usually when developer goes to City Planning with development application,... the city will determine the Section 37 benefits it wants. So has the 4800 Yonge developer already approached city planning,... or are they preparing Section 37 proposal based on the original Nestle Twin Towers from more than 20 years ago?


Does this mean anything,... definitely,... maybe more than just maybe! We're just little ants watching the big boys play monopoly,....
 

Attachments

  • IMG_4158[1].JPG
    IMG_4158[1].JPG
    3 MB · Views: 972

investican

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Messages
306
Reaction score
2
Menkes bought the site.
 

Gratty

New Member
Member Bio
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
36
Reaction score
10
Menkes bought the site.

Hopefully they don't pull the same stunt they did with Gibson Square - go to the OMB to have a site zoned for an office building re-zoned for more condos. That would be a shame.

With the coming revitalization of the Sheppard Centre - especially at street level, it would be great to have this site developed with an office tower.
 

mrxbombastic

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 22, 2013
Messages
567
Reaction score
328
give us Hullmark #2 and I'll personally go to Menkes office with a box of chocolates. Ferrero Roche or Lindt I'd ask.
 

sunnyraytoronto

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 12, 2009
Messages
1,956
Reaction score
908
give us Hullmark #2 and I'll personally go to Menkes office with a box of chocolates. Ferrero Roche or Lindt I'd ask.


Menkes is NOT Tridel,.... thus instead of HullmarkCentre #2, this will likely be more like GibsonSquare #2

Menkes is a huge area developer and at one time had a great reputation in North York Centre for developments like Proctor&Gamble building, Ultima Condo (security disconnect in NorthYorkCentre underground PATH) & TransAmerica tower, EmpressWalk (twin condo tower with retail podium - as first residential condo tower on Yonge Street, Section 37 contribution demanded by North York city included rebuilding Earl Haig Secondary School, rebuilding McKee Elementary School, new Mitchell Field Community Centre, realignment of Doris Avenue, etc,...). Notice, I didn't mention Spectrum and Cosmos,.... not really worth mentioning,...

More recently, Menkes was the developer that is responsible for GibsonSquare which not only took out the popular rose garden park (private property) and hid historical GibsonHouse, but added twin 42 storey condo towers on site that was zoned for office use. In addition, these 160m condos went above and beyond the 100m height limit in North York Centre. City Planning rejected these proposal but Menkes went to OMB for approval. Now the former 100m height limit of North York Centre is toast as we see with GibsonSquare (about 160m), HullmarkCentre (about 165m) and EmeraldPark (about 145m)


The old 3 segmented white 25 storey office(?) building proposal from OxfordProperties is likely dead since new developers usually come up with their own designs. And since this site is at the corner of Yonge & Sheppard, we should expect something higher than EmeraldPark 40-storey east tower (about 145m) and likely as high or higher than HullmarkCentre 45-storey north tower (about 165m),... and since it's Menkes, it will NOT be spectacular,... it'll be grey, dull and boring shorter version of a HongKong style condo tower,... just like GibsonSquare,.... which would deserve a box of,... well, let's just not say chocolate but something of similar colour,.... ;p
 
Last edited:

Solaris

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
5,673
Reaction score
284
I sure hope Menkes doesn't turn this site into just another condo .... it would be good if they can put in bottom 1/3 as office and upper 2/3 residential in the tower such that there is a substantial office component .... fingers crossed :D
 

sunnyraytoronto

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 12, 2009
Messages
1,956
Reaction score
908
I sure hope Menkes doesn't turn this site into just another condo .... it would be good if they can put in bottom 1/3 as office and upper 2/3 residential in the tower such that there is a substantial office component .... fingers crossed :D


BTW, in early February when that drill truck was drilling on site, it wasn't just to test for soil contamination and any environmental cleanup required for a land sale. Everywhere they drilled, they left water wells (as pictured in attachment) to monitor water level,...

Why would they want to monitor water level? It determines how deep they can economically dig for parking lot. Parking spaces below water level cost an average of about $50,000-$100,000 per parking spot to build. Condo tower need more parking spot than office tower of similar height. To south EmeraldPark 32+40 storey condo and 1 floor office needs 6 underground parking levels. To the west, Nestle 21 storey office building needs 3 underground parking levels. Note: 21 storey Nestle and 32 storey EmeraldPark West Tower are of similar height (about 100m) since office floors need more height clearance VS condo. Parking limited by water level and subway turning tunnel as mentioned previously will help keep this site more office VS condo mix and limit overall height,... but then again, this is now Menkes,.... similar logic didn't apply at Menkes GibsonSquare where they just built twin 42 storey residential condo towers at Yonge & ParkHomes with low level underground parking that stretches from Yonge to almost Beecroft under a park.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_4267[1].JPG
    IMG_4267[1].JPG
    2.1 MB · Views: 581
  • IMG_4271[2].JPG
    IMG_4271[2].JPG
    2.5 MB · Views: 563
  • IMG_4277[1].JPG
    IMG_4277[1].JPG
    1.5 MB · Views: 601

Top