News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 6.5K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 33K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 3.3K     0 

denfromoakvillemilton

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
7,161
Reaction score
1,141
Yet they say traditional project delivery is bad cause TTC had a big overrun and delay with the TYSSE.

I would assume subway extensions won’t be that bad cause TTC owns the trains and would probably be able to provide feedback for trackage built to their standards.
And even then, the TYSSE would have been open 2 years prior if not for the province and their hard on for York Region.

And people trust these guys with the Downtown Subway?
 

W. K. Lis

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
22,709
Reaction score
13,008
City:
Toronto
Should have just made it a subway. By the time this opens we will need a subway on Eglinton anyways and it would have taken the same amount of time.
Doug Ford's mentor, Mike Harris put a stop to the Eglinton West Subway, whose construction began in 1994 but was cancelled in 1995.
 

Railrunner

New Member
Member Bio
Joined
Aug 10, 2022
Messages
81
Reaction score
138
Doug Ford's mentor, Mike Harris put a stop to the Eglinton West Subway, whose construction began in 1994 but was cancelled in 1995.
I have heard about the cancelled ‘90s subway for my whole life hard to believe we are still paying a debt as a city for the mistakes of 30 years ago. Without Mike Harris the 407 would be Ontario owned and Eglinton could have been a subway line lines 1 and 2 by ~2005. The last 2 decades could have been focused on connecting the outer boroughs and downtown. Instead of failing to complete Crosstown which looks as though it will lack capacity from day 1 until the OL is complete in the mid-‘30s. Toronto transit history is more depressing than anything Cormac McCarthy has written…
 

W. K. Lis

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
22,709
Reaction score
13,008
City:
Toronto
I have heard about the cancelled ‘90s subway for my whole life hard to believe we are still paying a debt as a city for the mistakes of 30 years ago. Without Mike Harris the 407 would be Ontario owned and Eglinton could have been a subway line lines 1 and 2 by ~2005. The last 2 decades could have been focused on connecting the outer boroughs and downtown. Instead of failing to complete Crosstown which looks as though it will lack capacity from day 1 until the OL is complete in the mid-‘30s. Toronto transit history is more depressing than anything Cormac McCarthy has written…
Worst was the downloading from the province to the cities.

Queen’s Park used to pay close to three-quarters of capital costs and half the operating costs for the TTC.

Housing, a social cost if there ever was one, became Toronto’s responsibility. He stopped paying for sections of highways and dumped the cost on the city.

There were others costs downloaded that the province used to pay for and which the cities now had to.

All to show that the province can save money, and they did. Except that the cities now had to pay for it.
 

Aplus23

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jul 22, 2018
Messages
200
Reaction score
278
Why exactly are we going to need a subway on eglinton rather than LRT - does a Subway cab hold more ppl than an LRT cab. Or is that just another jab of the line not being fully grade separated ?
 

MrGoose

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
285
Reaction score
877
Why exactly are we going to need a subway on eglinton rather than LRT - does a Subway cab hold more ppl than an LRT cab. Or is that just another jab of the line not being fully grade separated ?
For the same tunnel width, a high floor subway is always going to have greater capacity than a low floor lrt. No standing space being taken up by wheel wells.

So if you were going to construct expensive station boxes and grade separate half the line by digging subway-width tunnels, then you might as well elevate the remaining half of the line (where the ROW has already been carved out) and make the line a subway.

And if you really wanted to save money, you cut out some closely spaced stations (Like Oakwood, Mt Pleasant and Forest Hill) and remove some of the above grade stations to just major intersections.

Boom, you've converted an easily snarled LRT to a high capacity crosstown subway which also relieves pressure on the Bloor line.
 

Railrunner

New Member
Member Bio
Joined
Aug 10, 2022
Messages
81
Reaction score
138
Why exactly are we going to need a subway on eglinton rather than LRT - does a Subway cab hold more ppl than an LRT cab. Or is that just another jab of the line not being fully grade separated ?

No signal priority, not grade separated, tunnels larger than subway tunnels, lower capacity, exposed to the elements and many sources of interference at track level (think about how many cars will hit this train). I love LRT but because this line is opening so slowly and we have so little transit being built in the rest of the city many developments have been built in anticipation so the ridership will be bonanzas from day 1. Also factoring in the fact that it is the furthest north east west line and that many will take it to go between Yonge and Spadina on line 1. Also $13 billion is an incredible expense for what will essentially be a crossover between St. Clair and Line 2.
 

Toronto Rocks

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
Messages
107
Reaction score
37
Crosstown was award by the Liberals (through ML) and we had a Pandemic in there as well, so we need to keep that in mind when we track the future timing to complete the Ontario Line.

That being said, if it took over a decade to build a straight line that is over 50% outside, then realistically how long will it really take to build a line that cross the river twice and twists it way under the aging instructure in our city core?
 

Railrunner

New Member
Member Bio
Joined
Aug 10, 2022
Messages
81
Reaction score
138
Crosstown was award by the Liberals (through ML) and we had a Pandemic in there as well, so we need to keep that in mind when we track the future timing to complete the Ontario Line.

That being said, if it took over a decade to build a straight line that is over 50% outside, then realistically how long will it really take to build a line that cross the river twice and twists it way under the aging instructure in our city core?
Screenshot 2022-12-08 at 4.47.03 PM.png

UrbanToronto the day the OL opens.
 

Rainforest

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
4,925
Reaction score
2,966
Why exactly are we going to need a subway on eglinton rather than LRT - does a Subway cab hold more ppl than an LRT cab. Or is that just another jab of the line not being fully grade separated ?

It does not have to be a subway. The subway level capacity will not be needed for a long time. If that capacity will be needed at all, there are ways to mitigate with a parallel line on Lawrence.

However, in a way we are getting the worst of both worlds. Capacity of an LRT, for the cost almost equal to a subway.
 

W. K. Lis

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
22,709
Reaction score
13,008
City:
Toronto

No ‘credible plan’ for completion of Eglinton LRT, says Metrolinx

An internal Metrolinx performance report from September 2022 blames the delays on the “underperformance” of Crosslinx Transit Solutions.​

From link.

The consortium building the Eglinton Crosstown LRT says it expects the long-delayed transit project to be completed by March 2023, but the provincial transit agency overseeing the project says that date is “overly ambitious.”

In an internal Metrolinx performance report from September 2022 obtained by the Star, Metrolinx said Crosslinx Transit Solutions does not have a “credible plan” to complete the LRT. It ascribed the “continuous slippage of the project’s plan” to the “underperformance of Crosslinx.

The documents give a detailed picture of the ongoing strife between the provincial agencies overseeing the project, Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario, and Crosslinx, the consortium made up of four construction and engineering companies.

Crosslinx and Infrastructure Ontario did not respond to requests for comment by the Star. Metrolinx reiterated a statement it gave the Star in September, where it said it had expected the LRT to be up and running this fall, but Crosslinx fell behind schedule.

In its internal report, Metrolinx said the testing of the entire system is lagging behind schedule. “The plan’s projection is extremely ambitious and (Crosslinx) has continuously failed to achieve the goals,” the documents read.

Construction and engineering work on the line are 98 per cent complete, the documents say, while testing is only 78.5 per cent done.

The report says the current approved budget is $12.82 billion, up from $12.24 billion in 2019. It also shows Crosslinx has more than $260 million in outstanding claims against Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario.

The LRT has been under construction since 2011 and was initially to be completed in 2020, but the timeline for the 19-kilometre light rail transit line has been pushed back several times, to the dismay of commuters and Eglinton businesses that have put up with more than a decade of heavy construction.

According to the report, which was first reported by CBC News, Crosslinx now expects the LRT to be complete by March 2023, though Metrolinx casts doubt on the viability of this timeline, calling the testing schedule “overly ambitious and not achievable.”

Among a list of issues Metrolinx identified is “lack of a credible plan toward the completion of the project.” Crosslinx, Metrolinx alleges, has not laid out the requirements for achieving revenue service demonstration — the point at which the transit agency can begin running the trains along the line to test that there are no problems.

“This is critical to understanding the schedule and a realistic project completion date. Until this aspect can be agreed upon and a credible plan accepted, the schedule remain (sic) categorized as red in status.”

Metrolinx flags issues with the work Crosslinx has completed so far, “including but not limited to failure of waterproofing/water ingress leading to leakages and mold; and damaged public-exposed concrete.”

The transit agency also outlines ongoing safety concerns with Crosslinx. While the consortium has improved its safety measures since an LRT worker was hit and killed by a cement truck driver in May, the report outlines, the transit agency and Infrastructure Ontario have continued to observe some violations of mobile equipment standards, which are important to preventing injury and death.

The relationship between Metrolinx and Crosslinx has been rocky for several years. In 2018, the provincial transit agency paid Crosslinx an extra $237 million to keep the project on track. But in February 2020, Metrolinx blamed the LRT’s delayed opening date on Crosslinx’s failure to meet construction targets, plus defects in old infrastructure under the TTC Eglinton station.

In December 2021, Metrolinx, Infrastructure Ontario and Crosslinx struck a new deal on the cost and timeline for the transit line after a legal battle over who should be responsible for the added costs to the LRT’s construction imposed by the pandemic. Ultimately, an Ontario Superior Court Justice ruled in Crosslinx’s favour, and the province had to pay Crosslinx an extra $325 million for the project.

In December 2021, Metrolinx said the transit line would be complete by September 2022 and ready for service in 2023, but in September, the Star reported the line was delayed again.

At the time, Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster said “We are doing everything to hold Crosslinx Transit Solutions accountable and to redouble efforts to meet their commitments and complete the work quickly so we can welcome riders onto a complete, tested and fully operational Eglinton Crosstown LRT as soon as possible.”

I would say to give them a window of "spring 2023". Which means March, April, May, or June 2023.
 
Last edited:

nfitz

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Messages
25,424
Reaction score
6,206
City:
Toronto
I would say to give them a window of "spring 2023". Which means March, April, May, or June 2023.
And then how many months of testing after handover? The Elizabeth line in London had 6 months of trial running by TFL - but that was only after 6 months of trial running to a timetable by the contractor.

It feels like starting operating in September 2023 is out. More likely 2024, or very late 2023. Though that assumes nothing major comes to light during trial operations.

And to think their biggest concern that caused them to start cancelling contracts was Bombardier's streetcar delivery timeframe.
 

Top