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RC8

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Nope, even developing countries have large transit systems.

Just going through Wikipedia, Istanbul, Kiev, Bucharest, Tehran, Santiago, Kuala Lampur, Sao Palao, Rio De Janeiro, Buenos Aires currently have a bigger metro system than us and are expanding at a much faster rate than we are.

There are a few more in China, SouthEast Asia, and Lagos that are building an entire system of comparable or bigger size to what we have currently from scratch, to be opened in a few years.

I think the biggest shock by far is Los Angeles, a city that is by all means entirely car-dominated, that is building lines non-stop. And its residents are even supportive and happy to pay taxes for it!

When you consider that GO Transit is also a thing, and that our streetcar network is much better than most bus lines in the developing cities you listed, Toronto has a decent transit network.

If you actually experienced living in the outskirts of one of the cities you listed, you would see the experience is not much better (or worse) than taking transit here in Toronto from the likes of Scarborough or Mississauga.
 

cplchanb

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When you consider that GO Transit is also a thing, and that our streetcar network is much better than most bus lines in the developing cities you listed, Toronto has a decent transit network.

If you actually experienced living in the outskirts of one of the cities you listed, you would see the experience is not much better (or worse) than taking transit here in Toronto from the likes of Scarborough or Mississauga.

I have to say a streetcar in toronto is really much for the most part like a bus on rails since many of the routes are mixed in with traffic jams which arguably make it worse than a wheeled vehicle.
I think the point of his argument is that unlike toronto, there is a strong united desire to get the job done and to invest in a long term transit plan. Sure we have have fancy pipe dreams of a utopian toronto, but those either get shelved either by the slightest scare of the bill or lost in translation by bickering politicians. Obviously the cities that are investing in large infrastructure have capital, but theyare taking a risk too, but they have a spine to do it as the long term benefits far outweigh the short term losses. That combined with a solid long term growth plan that doesnt get jumbled with each election equals progress.

remember if our most inglorious mayor hadnt cancelled sheppard and finch LRT and then restarted it, both would already be done or very near done by now and eglinton would be much more farther in progress. Unfortunately because of it we are years behind and way overcost. At this point it is better to have a plan that is even half decent than having no plan and spiraling around in endless talking.
 

howl

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From a developed world perspective and a North American one, my understanding is that the best time to develop a subway network in a relatively cheap way was the early 1900's. That's when many networks like NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philly were built, same with Paris, London. Currently I believe we're in the ballpark of Chicago & Boston in terms of population, but back then we were a much smaller city than those. Things like cost of labour, safety regulations, accessibility requirements, and property prices now make building transit more expensive in the developed world.



In North America, most of the cities listed above haven't built many new lines in the later quarter of the 20th century. In the west coast, many of the new transit lines are LRTs. I believe that LA's new LRT lines are often along hydro corridors or rail corridors, so they don't involve expensive tunnelling. Portland has been building LRTs, Vancouver uses Skytrain.

Chinese cities and other developing countries are probably at a similar stage as say NYC back in the early 1900's, except possibly even more so with bigger populations, no regulations or restrictions and cheap labour. Their city's populations are 5x-10x Toronto, so it's not even comparable.

Interesting post on this:
http://stevemunro.ca/?p=9275

New York is current building a new subway line (Second Avenue Subway). Washington DC is currently building a new transit (partially underground) line (Silver line)
 

ehlow

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New York is current building a new subway line (Second Avenue Subway). Washington DC is currently building a new transit (partially underground) line (Silver line)

Yeah and the 2nd Ave subway will be the first major expansion NYC has done in over 50 years lol. My point is the vast majority of really big subway systems in North America were built before our very first subway in 1954. That was the prime time for subway building in North America.
 

denfromoakvillemilton

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When you consider that GO Transit is also a thing, and that our streetcar network is much better than most bus lines in the developing cities you listed, Toronto has a decent transit network.

If you actually experienced living in the outskirts of one of the cities you listed, you would see the experience is not much better (or worse) than taking transit here in Toronto from the likes of Scarborough or Mississauga.
Toronto has a good transit network itself. We don't have a good transit agency or help in funding!
 

Hipster Duck

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When you consider that GO Transit is also a thing, and that our streetcar network is much better than most bus lines in the developing cities you listed, Toronto has a decent transit network.

If you actually experienced living in the outskirts of one of the cities you listed, you would see the experience is not much better (or worse) than taking transit here in Toronto from the likes of Scarborough or Mississauga.

GO transit is not a thing, and streetcars are not rapid transit.

Yeah and the 2nd Ave subway will be the first major expansion NYC has done in over 50 years lol. My point is the vast majority of really big subway systems in North America were built before our very first subway in 1954. That was the prime time for subway building in North America.

I don't subscribe to that theory, either. Washington DC, the Bay Area, Atlanta and Vancouver have longer heavy rail rapid transit systems, and these were all built decades after our's. That is not to say that these cities have higher ridership, or that they are necessarily better distributed to serve the needs of the population, but I don't think it's accurate to say that the era of subway building predates the second world war.
 
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BurlOak

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I just I thought I would make a reference to this diagram from Steve Munro's website. Just shows what a myth it is that transit ridership drops after Kennedy (coming a.m. westbound).

20110624Ridership.jpg
 

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ehlow

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GO transit is not a thing, and streetcars are not rapid transit.



I don't subscribe to that theory, either. Washington DC, the Bay Area, Atlanta and Vancouver have longer heavy rail rapid transit systems, and these were all built decades after our's. That is not to say that these cities have higher ridership, or that they are necessarily better distributed to serve the needs of the population, but I don't think it's accurate to say that the era of subway building predates the second world war.

Yeah there are systems built after ours, Montreal for example (although it's not huge). Vancouver isn't really heavy rail or a huge system, but you're right it's a rare example of such a system built since the 80's in NA.

SF, Muni is LRT, streetcar and buses, so I'm guessing you mean BART, which is more regional in nature from what I know.

Anyways I never meant that there was nothing built in the latter half of the 20th century, just that the early half was the real prime time for subway building. The costs & regulations were aligned for that. A lot of the early subways were built by immigrant workers being paid low wages doing dangerous work using cut & cover. The elevated stations were bare-bones, no escalators or elevators needed for accessibility. You can't do that stuff now.
 

ehlow

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I just I thought I would make a reference to this diagram from Steve Munro's website. Just shows what a myth it is that transit ridership drops after Kennedy (coming a.m. westbound).

Just to clarify what the image is, it's showing demand in the scenario where Eglinton is fully underground and through-routed with the Scarborough-LRT (the 2010 MOU plan).
 

M II A II R II K

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Eglinton LRT plan calls for $150 million in streetscaping

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...n_calls_for_150_million_in_streetscaping.html

PDF Report: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2014/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-67919.pdf

Residents seldom heap praise on city hall. But there were plenty of kudos this week for the city’s plans to beautify Eglinton Ave. after the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown LRT opens in 2020, including construction of what would be Toronto’s longest bike lanes.

Because the existing bus lanes will no longer be needed, city planners and transportation staff are recommending that road space be redistributed among buffered sidewalk-height bike lanes, wider sidewalks and more greenery on the 11-kilometre stretch between Black Creek Dr. and Brentcliffe Rd. That’s where the LRT will run in a tunnel under the road. --- “This will be the longest bike lane in Toronto. A chance to redesign a whole street doesn’t come around very often. This is Toronto’s chance to get it right,†North Toronto Collegiate Institute student Matthew Gerry told council’s public works committee on Wednesday.

.....




eg1.jpg.size.xxlarge.letterbox.jpg
 

innsertnamehere

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I just I thought I would make a reference to this diagram from Steve Munro's website. Just shows what a myth it is that transit ridership drops after Kennedy (coming a.m. westbound).

View attachment 24960

that is when the lines thru ran with Eglinton being completely underground, I.E. Fords plan, and even then you can see a significant drop at Kennedy by around 1/3. because the current plan has the lines being split (or rather the SRT as the bloor subway extension) the ridership will be much, much lower.

BART is a sort of odd quasi-metro quasi-commuter rail system. It uses Metro trains but covers commuter rail style distances and stop spacing and uses a high percentage seated operating model, only making frequent stops in the core of SF. typically build lots of parking at the stations as well. Sort of like Clevelands subway, it is kind of a metro but acts surprisingly like commuter rail.

GO transit is absolutely a thing, at least on the Lakeshore line. Stations like Pickering have ridership numbers that rival subway stations, it has over 9,000 daily users. Oakville is the busiest, at 13,000 +. Even the peak only lines have stations with over 2,000 daily users. (Unionville on the stouffville line is an example) Lakeshore is expected to start rivaling the bloor subway in ridership over the coming years, starting to approach 20,000 PPHD at peak hours.
 
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Palma

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Eglinton LRT plan calls for $150 million in streetscaping

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...n_calls_for_150_million_in_streetscaping.html

PDF Report: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2014/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-67919.pdf

Residents seldom heap praise on city hall. But there were plenty of kudos this week for the city’s plans to beautify Eglinton Ave. after the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown LRT opens in 2020, including construction of what would be Toronto’s longest bike lanes.

Because the existing bus lanes will no longer be needed, city planners and transportation staff are recommending that road space be redistributed among buffered sidewalk-height bike lanes, wider sidewalks and more greenery on the 11-kilometre stretch between Black Creek Dr. and Brentcliffe Rd. That’s where the LRT will run in a tunnel under the road. --- “This will be the longest bike lane in Toronto. A chance to redesign a whole street doesn’t come around very often. This is Toronto’s chance to get it right,” North Toronto Collegiate Institute student Matthew Gerry told council’s public works committee on Wednesday.

.....




eg1.jpg.size.xxlarge.letterbox.jpg

That perspective looks great but how realistic? Presently there are sidewalks on both sides of Eglinton and 2 car lanes in both directions on Eglinton (central portion). Image shows an added 2 bike lanes (1 in each direction), central boulevard and wider sidewalks. Where is this extra space for bike lanes, boulevard and wider sidewalks coming from? If all this extra space existed than why not make the bike lanes a bit wider. Plus how narrow will the car lanes be then. On St. Clair, the lanes are really tight.
 
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