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I agree completely but at this point, I'd rather just build it that way than keep waiting for a perfect plan to appear.

BUT they dont have any plans east of laird other then it going underground. They dont know how, they dont have EA's done, they are winging it. However they did have a Eglinton LRT plan for surface which Im more then happy to go back to. AIRPORT PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
No offense, Ryan, but this would just help perpetuate the cycle of constantly-changing transit plans in Toronto, thus ensuring that nothing ever gets built.

It wouldn't be changing anything; as someone mentioned there is no plan yet for the east portion of Eglinton... the construction that has started at Black Creek would continue.

In fact I think Metrolinx/the province is waiting to see what happens when Ford is kicked out, before they abandon the original plan.
 
It wouldn't be changing anything; as someone mentioned there is no plan yet for the east portion of Eglinton... the construction that has started at Black Creek would continue.

In fact I think Metrolinx/the province is waiting to see what happens when Ford is kicked out, before they abandon the original plan.

there are NO EAs done for anything you are suggesting. These things will take time.. Just like sheppard is. It will set us back further. We should stick to the plans we have already done. Everytime we rework a plan it costs more money and it adds to the completion time in an already financially strapped and gridlocked city.
 
there are NO EAs done for anything you are suggesting.
I think Ryan is suggesting that they build Eglinton east from Brentcliffe to Kennedy as per the original David Miller/Adam Giambrone Transit City plan. The EA for that is already completed. It's the EA for running underground from Brentcliffe (Don Mills) to Kennedy that hasn't yet been completed - or started - TTC is currently tendering it.
 
Don't EAs only take 6 months now?

Regardless they still have a lot of digging to do before they get from the start of the tunnel to wherever the original EA emerged from the tunnel on the east end. I'm sure the EA will be done in time.
 
I would prefer they build the original Transit City plan for Eglinton to save the money (including the additional EA they will now need to do), or if they are going to bury the whole thing realize that there is no point whatsoever making it LRT. The current plan for Eglinton couldn't be more lame in that it isn't building the more affordable solution that meets ridership projections, nor is it building something that is consistent with the existing network, nor is it buying the most affordable vehicle per rider. A standard gauge low floor LRT in a tunnel... I don't get it. Standard gauge means no compatibility with the existing network, low floor when not at grade adds no value since the platform can be at any height (you actually need to remove more material for a lower platform), LRT when mostly in a tunnel means a more expensive vehicle per passenger to build in flexibility to run in mixed traffic or on tighter turns or steeper grades (at slower speeds). Why?
 
Maybe they shouldn't have ordered two different versions of the LRT vehicles. Then at least the Transit City LRT order can be put to use on the legacy streetcar network.
 
Don't EAs only take 6 months now?
And yet we're already about 8 months in. It won't be done until near end of 2012.

Regardless they still have a lot of digging to do before they get from the start of the tunnel to wherever the original EA emerged from the tunnel on the east end. I'm sure the EA will be done in time.
Meanwhile, the 2nd pair of TBMs will be arriving sometime late 2012/early 2013 ... and they won't have a launch site prepared.
 
Add another $65M to Ford's tab for burying the rest of Eglinton. The absurdity of this decision is mind-boggling.

December 13, 2011

Cost of cancelling Transit City could hit $65-million

By ELIZABETH CHURCH
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

Latest estimate from Metrolinx comes as mayor seeks TTC fare hikes and reduced services

Just as Mayor Rob Ford is trying to squeeze every penny out of Toronto's budget, news comes that the city is bracing for a $65-million bill for a transit plan he cancelled on his first day in office.

The multimillion-dollar price tag is the latest estimate for cancelling the Sheppard and Finch light-rail lines - part of former mayor David Miller's Transit City plan. It comes as the city's transit users are facing fare hikes and reduced service, measures planned for the new year to meet the mayor's demands for a 10-per-cent budget cut. The new expense surfaced Tuesday during budget discussions, where city councillors also weighed the merits of closing pools and community centres in order to save dollars.

The cost of the cancelled lines is not even included in those discussions. The outstanding expense to the struggling transit system is not part of next year's budget because the city is still waiting for a bill from the province.

"We haven't received an invoice," TTC general manager Gary Webster told the city's budget committee when asked about the missing charge. Metrolinx, the province's transit agency, has put the cost at $65-million, he said.

The provincial agency said it is working on the final figure. "Currently, we are still reviewing the costs with the TTC and our light-rail vehicle supplier. It is important for us to be as accurate as possible," said a Metrolinx spokeswoman in a statement.

It has been just over a year since Mr. Ford took office and pulled the plug on the web of light-rail lines known as Transit City, taking his victory as a sign that Toronto voters wanted subways instead. Under a new deal, the province agreed to plow most of the money meant for Mr. Miller's plan into burying the new crosstown line for its entire length beneath Eglinton Avenue. That left Mr. Ford looking for $4.2-billion for a promised subway line along Sheppard Avenue.

The new $65-million cancellation cost is the second surprise in less than a week from the TTC. Last week, Mr. Webster revealed to the same budget committee that Scarborough commuters will have to bear four years of bus service while their rickety LRT is replaced.

Critics of the mayor lamented that this latest discovery is more evidence of the sorry state of long-term transit planning. "At the end of the day we are blowing the public transit agenda of this city," said councillor Joe Mihevc, a past TTC commissioner.

"Imagine if we had spent $65-million actually delivering rapid transit," said Councillor Adam Vaughan. "Instead, what we have is a budget that is about shrinking resources and in some cases tragically misspending resources."

Mr. Vaughan said the city is "willfully ignoring," the coming bill in order to hide the cost of the mayor's actions.

Budget committee vice-chair and councillor Doug Ford, came to the defence of the mayor, his brother, saying part of the problem with the city's budget is a decision by the past council to order new streetcars without any source of funding. That move, he argued, has contributed to Toronto's rising debt. He defended the cancelation of Transit City, saying it is what Toronto voters wanted.

"We know, poll after poll after poll, people want subways," Doug Ford said. "They are very clear. The mandate was very clear in the election. People want subways."

Councillor Mike Del Grande said the cost of the cancellation is not on the city's books because it has not been settled. "Nothing has been firmed or finalized," he said.

Asked if he is worried about the outstanding liability to the city as he hunts for ways to save school nutrition programs and other services, he said it is one of many concerns. "I worry about everything," he said.
 
Add another $65M to Ford's tab for burying the rest of Eglinton. The absurdity of this decision is mind-boggling.

December 13, 2011

Cost of cancelling Transit City could hit $65-million

By ELIZABETH CHURCH
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

Latest estimate from Metrolinx comes as mayor seeks TTC fare hikes and reduced services

Just as Mayor Rob Ford is trying to squeeze every penny out of Toronto's budget, news comes that the city is bracing for a $65-million bill for a transit plan he cancelled on his first day in office.

The multimillion-dollar price tag is the latest estimate for cancelling the Sheppard and Finch light-rail lines - part of former mayor David Miller's Transit City plan. It comes as the city's transit users are facing fare hikes and reduced service, measures planned for the new year to meet the mayor's demands for a 10-per-cent budget cut. The new expense surfaced Tuesday during budget discussions, where city councillors also weighed the merits of closing pools and community centres in order to save dollars.

The cost of the cancelled lines is not even included in those discussions. The outstanding expense to the struggling transit system is not part of next year's budget because the city is still waiting for a bill from the province.

"We haven't received an invoice," TTC general manager Gary Webster told the city's budget committee when asked about the missing charge. Metrolinx, the province's transit agency, has put the cost at $65-million, he said.

The provincial agency said it is working on the final figure. "Currently, we are still reviewing the costs with the TTC and our light-rail vehicle supplier. It is important for us to be as accurate as possible," said a Metrolinx spokeswoman in a statement.

It has been just over a year since Mr. Ford took office and pulled the plug on the web of light-rail lines known as Transit City, taking his victory as a sign that Toronto voters wanted subways instead. Under a new deal, the province agreed to plow most of the money meant for Mr. Miller's plan into burying the new crosstown line for its entire length beneath Eglinton Avenue. That left Mr. Ford looking for $4.2-billion for a promised subway line along Sheppard Avenue.

The new $65-million cancellation cost is the second surprise in less than a week from the TTC. Last week, Mr. Webster revealed to the same budget committee that Scarborough commuters will have to bear four years of bus service while their rickety LRT is replaced.

Critics of the mayor lamented that this latest discovery is more evidence of the sorry state of long-term transit planning. "At the end of the day we are blowing the public transit agenda of this city," said councillor Joe Mihevc, a past TTC commissioner.

"Imagine if we had spent $65-million actually delivering rapid transit," said Councillor Adam Vaughan. "Instead, what we have is a budget that is about shrinking resources and in some cases tragically misspending resources."

Mr. Vaughan said the city is "willfully ignoring," the coming bill in order to hide the cost of the mayor's actions.

Budget committee vice-chair and councillor Doug Ford, came to the defence of the mayor, his brother, saying part of the problem with the city's budget is a decision by the past council to order new streetcars without any source of funding. That move, he argued, has contributed to Toronto's rising debt. He defended the cancelation of Transit City, saying it is what Toronto voters wanted.

"We know, poll after poll after poll, people want subways," Doug Ford said. "They are very clear. The mandate was very clear in the election. People want subways."

Councillor Mike Del Grande said the cost of the cancellation is not on the city's books because it has not been settled. "Nothing has been firmed or finalized," he said.

Asked if he is worried about the outstanding liability to the city as he hunts for ways to save school nutrition programs and other services, he said it is one of many concerns. "I worry about everything," he said.

Gravy money at work?
 
Eglinton LRT nation's costliest infrastructure project: magazine


Jan. 01, 2012

By Bill Curry

Read More: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ect-magazine-says/article2288634/?from=sec431


Toronto Mayor Rob Ford’s decision to move the Eglinton Crosstown light rail line underground has turned it into the most expensive infrastructure project in the country. The Eglinton line leads the pack in a new ranking of Canada’s 100 biggest infrastructure projects for 2012, researched and compiled by ReNew Canada, an infrastructure magazine.

- Mr. Miller has said his successor’s tunnel plan is unnecessary and “extremely unwise.” “The decision to bury the project and make it an underground – as opposed to an above-ground – LRT basically created that cost hike,” said Mira Shenker, editor of ReNew Canada, who has inspected the work site and expects the cost of the project to rise. “It’s estimated in the $8-billions, but we don’t really know.”

.....




web-infrastruct_1358345cl-8.jpg
 
It's costly because it was designed as an LRT and being built as a subway, getting none of the flexibility of LRT but all the high costs of the rolling stock. If we were building Eglinton carte blanche and not as a leftover from Transit City, subway would make more sense.
 
Anything would be better than LRT. The whole reason why cities go with LRT is due it's flexibility to run at grade.........it avoids the huge cost of making a system totally grade separated but Toronto has completely negated any of those savings.
LRT will be much more expensive than just extending the SkyTrain or even subway or monorail as one of the largest costs of the SRT conversion is that they are going to have to "raise the roof" on the current SRT stations due to the need for more height for the overhead catenary power supplies. That would not be an issue with standard metro or monorail.
Toronto is building a system with the lowest capacity and yet is the most expensive of all technologies available.............it really is quite bizzare.
 
Anything would be better than LRT. The whole reason why cities go with LRT is due it's flexibility to run at grade.........it avoids the huge cost of making a system totally grade separated but Toronto has completely negated any of those savings.
LRT will be much more expensive than just extending the SkyTrain or even subway or monorail as one of the largest costs of the SRT conversion is that they are going to have to "raise the roof" on the current SRT stations due to the need for more height for the overhead catenary power supplies. That would not be an issue with standard metro or monorail.
Toronto is building a system with the lowest capacity and yet is the most expensive of all technologies available.............it really is quite bizzare.

This is what we do in this in this city, we have no clear transit agenda, so idiotic things like this result. Its like we need to reinvent the wheel everytime we do somethung transkt related. One need look no further than the whole TTC Presto card debacle, when the TTC wanted to create its own credit card swipe system. The lack of a national and subsequently city based transit agenda proves we do not know what we are doing. Time and time again we are told there is no money for transit and yet what are we doing here? I dont think this is terrible, but it is definitely nit the best use if our transkt dollars
 
It's demonstrably insane to build a completely underground LRT along Eglinton. Since construction hasn't started, might it be possible to get Ford to agree to the original plan to run the suburban sections aboveground, in exchange for applying the cost savings to extending the Sheppard subway? I know, I know, the Sheppard expansion doesn't make any sense, but Ford seems adamant about it and maybe this would be enough of an incentive for him to stand down on burying all of Eglinton.
 

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