SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
The HuLRT will not feature embedded tracks. This was cut at the same time when the loop was eliminated for cost reasons. That’s why I think this is probably the final layer of concrete.
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
From earlier in the week. Mayor Bonnie Crombie was in Ottawa advocating for the HuLRT City Centre Loop.
drum118
Superstar
Dec 18
Reshot some of yesterday chap shot with better weather
The beams over the ramp to Rathburn/City View are off centre to the beams on either end
Reshot some of yesterday chap shot with better weather
The beams over the ramp to Rathburn/City View are off centre to the beams on either end
superelevation
Active Member
If its going down the centre of a street then unless the businesses are in the median they aren't going to be under it. Not that I agree that it would have an impact anyway.
T3G
Senior Member
You don't agree that if a street is a vibrant shopping strip, putting up an elevated guideway over it is going to negatively impact people's desire to hang out there? How many successful businesses have a front end letting out underneath the Gardiner?
superelevation
Active Member
It`s been said before but . . .
-Modern elevated guideway and rail are not very large and quieter than road traffic, especially on a straight shot like Hurontario
-Comparing elevated rail to an elevated expressway should be a disqualification for one being taken seriously, the scale, amount of traffic etc etc etc is completely different
T3G
Senior Member
And who are you to decide what is and isn't a qualification to be taken seriously?
-I never said anything about the noise or the amount of traffic, so nice strawman you've set up there. I was specifically referring to what it does to the streetscape below.
-The scale of the guideway is only marginally relevant when the Gardiner Expressway is on the table. Through its elevated portion, it is hardly a Highway 401-style "superhighway", it stretches only 24 m across as it crosses York Street. Scale becomes more relevant the wider you make your road. At such a low level, if your theory about scale was true, then the area under the former York Street offramp wouldn't have been so unpleasant.
-None of your comments made specific reference to Hurontario, if you care to look back through the discussion all of it is in dealing in big picture thoughts, going right back to using an example of a bridge over a highway as an example of how elevated rail isn't disruptive (itself a strawman). If we are speaking specifically on the issue of Hurontario, then my favoured approach would be to abandon the entire Toronto commuter belt as a Biblical level urban planning tragedy*, so I wouldn't lose any sleep over an elevated guideway running over a street like that, or any other suburban stroad you care to name. However, since the discussion deals in big picture thoughts, and since this forum has previously proposed various proposals such as building an Ontario Line El over Parkside Drive, a residential non-stroad, consideration must be given to all contexts. The elevated guideways of the Vancouver Skytrain, for example, are just under 8 m in width, as per Google Satellite View. The Els of the New York Subway are slightly wider than that (the three track El over Broadway in Brooklyn, for example, clocks out at 13.18 m. If I measure just two tracks, I get 9 m). Do you get the impression that the streets under the Els, as important transport links as they are, are exceptionally pleasant? And that's with generous amounts of sunlight seeping through! https://www.google.ca/maps/@40.6952...4!1sutx3MCgg-3e1jJCpDtEz7Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Els are useful as a cost saving measure when compared to tunneling, but they must be used sparingly and carefully.
* This is hyperbole, before you again qualify what should and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Undead
Senior Member
Most of Hurontario is not that vibrant or pedestrian friendly to begin with. Taking lanes away for transit should help tame traffic volume and speed. Yes, surface transit can have the same effect. And yes, modern elevated is absolutely acceptable in suburban areas with 6-8 lane roads (I might have jumped the gun in the OL West elevated discussion).
Mercury
New Member
Elevated down the middle of the street is ugly and definitely has a psychological impact on people and hence on business viability and pedestrian movement.
Elevated also presents a barrier to access the transit, necessitating stairs or an elevator for stations.
Ground-level encourages use by having transit vehicles be visible and easily accessible.
Elevated also presents a barrier to access the transit, necessitating stairs or an elevator for stations.
Ground-level encourages use by having transit vehicles be visible and easily accessible.
lexaprofessional
New Member
sixrings
Senior Member
In New York when I visit there is a much more accepting approach to long transfer walks and stairs. In Toronto area people line up for the elevators and escalators. Which by the way are often broken. On street makes it easier accessible and less to maintain.
sixrings
Senior Member
If we don’t treat hurontario like Yonge street it will forever be barren. The in street lrt should give a boost at the very least to development.
ARG1
Senior Member
Well what exactly are the negative externalities on the streetscape if its not the noise?
The York Street offramp isn't unpleasant, it's the massive mega highway literally right next to it, as such you can't look at it in isolation. By contrast, I think the park under the Richmond and Adelaid viaducts is actually quite nice (well was, I haven't been there in a few years now so I don't know if it has changed).
First, the location you linked is actually kinda nice, and I would absolutely love to have that in Toronto. Second, are you seriously arguing by using 19th century functional infrastructure? We don't live in the 1800s anymore, we live in the 21st Century where we are actually quite good at building nice looking els. Just look at this: https://www.google.com/maps/@49.188...!2e0!5s20210301T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e2, or this: https://www.google.com/maps/@49.254...rOTw0XBPUsLbA9uRIQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e2, or heck you can even look at cities like Tokyo: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.663...m3LEVSuCEwSedj0wTw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e2
South East Asian Cities especially love putting els everywhere, and they do so respecting the urban fabric and making nice walkable areas, all without needing to sacrifice the speed and efficiency of the transit itself.
You have a source? Maybe some actual statistics to back up your claim? At best, the only thing you have here is a subjective claim on els being ugly, but even then that's extremely subjective. I can't think of any modern elevated metro that has had a negative impact on pedestrian movement and business viability, and cities like Vancouver and Hong Kong have basically proven that all of these claims are unfounded. And no, you can't just point to Chicago and New York that are >100 years old and are barely holding together due to poor maintenance.
Whatever time you lose by having to go up a small flight of stairs is made up by having a faster and more frequent train, and that's assuming that you lose time in the first place since you don't have to worry about waiting for a green light to cross the street to reach the median (as a reminder, if you have a far side stop, the train approaching the station has a green light, ie the crosswalk to the station has a red light and unless you want play frogger, you will miss the next train). I don't want to count how many times I have reached a Viva Station only to have missed the bus because I had a red light and couldn't cross Yonge Street to reach the platform, and since LRTs have much stricter limitations in terms of frequencies, missing a train on a median LRT is far more impactful and problematic than missing a train on an el. This is before we even talk get to the trains themselves which are often better and roomier for those with physical disabilities.
ARG1
Senior Member
Now imagine if like Yonge Street it had actual rapid transit, and not something that is barely faster than the bus outside of rush hour. Maybe perhaps it could actually convince a lot of people to get out of their cars?
Undead
Senior Member
We should at least be grade separating major intersections for surface rail.
My area looks similar to this; I'd love having a modern El nearby if it meant getting higher order transit 10 years earlier and at half the cost per mile.