allengeorge
Senior Member
Ontario finance minister says Brampton downtown LRT funding will depend heavily on ‘business case’
Brampton city council is expected to make a final decision on its vision for a long-awaited light rail transit (LRT) line on Main Street through the downtown core, but whether
www.thestar.com
Reading between the lines, it does not look like the downtown Brampton LRT extension as currently preferred (tunneled) is long for this world.
afransen
Senior Member
Yes. It's absolutely crazy spending an incremental $1.2B on a tunnel through a quant little downtown in Brampton while claiming the cupboard is bare on more important investments, such as Milton Line.Ontario finance minister says Brampton downtown LRT funding will depend heavily on ‘business case’
Brampton city council is expected to make a final decision on its vision for a long-awaited light rail transit (LRT) line on Main Street through the downtown core, but whether
Reading between the lines, it does not look like the downtown Brampton LRT extension as currently preferred (tunneled) is long for this world.
drum118
Superstar
Fully agree that the tunnel is a waste of resources as well slowing the completion date down. Considering what the surface route would do in haft the time being built as well haft the cost of a tunnel. Oh me, my single driver car going to take a few minutes longer to travel that section of the road with those old fashion streetcar in my way.Ontario finance minister says Brampton downtown LRT funding will depend heavily on ‘business case’
Brampton city council is expected to make a final decision on its vision for a long-awaited light rail transit (LRT) line on Main Street through the downtown core, but whether
Reading between the lines, it does not look like the downtown Brampton LRT extension as currently preferred (tunneled) is long for this world.
Mississauga and Halton will take the extra cost for building the LRT and put it into the Milton line today, even if its only for the 3rd track in place of the 4th one.
If council can gets its act together ASP, it maybe it can get the Steeles Station to be move to the northside now since work hasn't started on it yet. Only a few $$100,000 to move the line from the plan area at this time to where it was originally was to be built.
ShonTron
Moderator
Didn’t stop them from going overboard on the Crosstown West.
For the record, I just want it built, be it surface or tunnel. I think surface is the better option, but if a tunnel was absolutely necessary to get the votes, I’d grudgingly go for it.
Allandale25
Senior Member
The article neglected to mention that the numbers the Brampton Board of Trade are citing are from a 2019 high-level estimate from a staff report. There are 30% design engineering reports for the surface and tunnel options that will be before Council Q1 2023. So it's possible the delta could be more refined.
The reference to surface also doesn't provide the nuanced detail that the current surface design under study isn't the same one purposed in the 2014 Environmental Protection Report. So those locally in Brampton who are more inclined for surface solely based on cost and what they think it is because of 2014 may not understand or be acknowledging what the current design is.
Who are you saying is saying the cupboard is bare for the Milton Line? The Province?
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Whatever option is chosen for the Brampton extension, mixed traffic lanes should be a non-starter (like the plan before it was cancelled). LRT mixing with traffic is no better (and in some cases worse) than a bus.
ShonTron
Moderator
I’m not too worried about that for a short distance. But it should only be for two blocks: between Wellington and the terminus at Church Street. South of Wellington it will need dedicated lanes, if not a median.
afransen
Senior Member
Yes. It is entirely reasonable to have car traffic bypass around the downtown Brampton area of Main, with one one-way lane of pedestrianized vehicle access for the 400m between Wellington and Nelson.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
There are NIMBYs in Brampton who still think the light rail vehicles will be the ruin of Brampton's downtown, if they are on the surface. They also complain that Brampton's Main Street is not wide enough (look at Rome's narrow streets that have their trams running through them, for comparison.)
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drum118
Superstar
Hurontario LRT2023
is going to be the year we see the Hazel McCallion Line really take shape! Utility relocation work along the alignment is nearly complete, with some big pieces, like the 403 flyover, now underway.
•The OMSF building will reach substantial completion by February.
•Work on the LSW push box will be complete by the end of February with site restoration by Spring 2023.
•Construction of the Eaglewood bridge will be complete in Spring 2023.
•First canopy to be installed at the Matheson stop by end of Spring 2023.
•The Highway 407 bridge structure rehabilitation work will be complete in the next six months.
INTERSECTION WORK
In order to complete the guideway, partial closures are needed along the corridor to safely install tracks within intersections along Hurontario Street.
Completed
•MilvertonDrive/WatlineAvenue
•Sandstone Drive/Brunel Road
•Aldridge Street/Traders Boulevard
•Ambassador avenue
•Matheson Boulevard
•Kingsway Drive
Ongoing
•CourtneyparkDrive
•BarondaleDrive
•Skyway Drive/Superior Boulevard
Upcoming
•LongsideDrive/Admiral Boulevard
Derry Road
•CapstonDrive / World Drive
*work may be rescheduled due to unforeseen circumstances
Port Credit
The Push Box will finally be move into position in February with the bulk of the moving being done at night and in between train movement during the day at this time,
Sq One Loop
Some provision for the loop to connect to the current line will take place were possibly it can, with the loop being done as a stand alone project down the road.
Stations Platforms
As I suspected from day one, as well what I saw last week, platforms are being built for only one car with all platform being 50m long at this time. There is provision to increase the platforms to 100m when the need for a 2nd car is needed.
As for the thickness of the yard lead track, it has to do what the future land level is to be for future developments.
is going to be the year we see the Hazel McCallion Line really take shape! Utility relocation work along the alignment is nearly complete, with some big pieces, like the 403 flyover, now underway.
•The OMSF building will reach substantial completion by February.
•Work on the LSW push box will be complete by the end of February with site restoration by Spring 2023.
•Construction of the Eaglewood bridge will be complete in Spring 2023.
•First canopy to be installed at the Matheson stop by end of Spring 2023.
•The Highway 407 bridge structure rehabilitation work will be complete in the next six months.
INTERSECTION WORK
In order to complete the guideway, partial closures are needed along the corridor to safely install tracks within intersections along Hurontario Street.
Completed
•MilvertonDrive/WatlineAvenue
•Sandstone Drive/Brunel Road
•Aldridge Street/Traders Boulevard
•Ambassador avenue
•Matheson Boulevard
•Kingsway Drive
Ongoing
•CourtneyparkDrive
•BarondaleDrive
•Skyway Drive/Superior Boulevard
Upcoming
•LongsideDrive/Admiral Boulevard
Derry Road
•CapstonDrive / World Drive
*work may be rescheduled due to unforeseen circumstances
Port Credit
The Push Box will finally be move into position in February with the bulk of the moving being done at night and in between train movement during the day at this time,
Sq One Loop
Some provision for the loop to connect to the current line will take place were possibly it can, with the loop being done as a stand alone project down the road.
Stations Platforms
As I suspected from day one, as well what I saw last week, platforms are being built for only one car with all platform being 50m long at this time. There is provision to increase the platforms to 100m when the need for a 2nd car is needed.
As for the thickness of the yard lead track, it has to do what the future land level is to be for future developments.
FullMetalEngineer
New Member
Let me tie up some of the Brampton situation and points mentioned above for anyone interested in context on the situation since 2015 LRT rejection:
The City is undergoing an Integrated Development Plan downtown to widen sidewalks on Main St which will remove 2 of the current 4 lanes forcing the new surface route into mixed traffic.
1) The original iteration of this Downtown IDP project was created by the Nimby's on council who voted down the LRT: Elaine Moore, her faction tried to block any future surface LRT after the 2015 vote. It was scaled back by 6 progressive councilors last term to allow an LRT to be constructed in 2 lanes without ripping up millions of dollars in interlocking Brick, the resurfacing of the 2 lanes will be cheaper asphalt. Urgency was forced on pushing this through by Region of Peel demanding to begin long overdue watermain replacement and other utility work and upgrade Main St in parallel.
2) A solution to the new mixed traffic problem is to get cars off Main St and utilize the ring of bypasses around downtown which the upcoming Queen BRT is likely to make use of. Make Main St open for transit, cycling and pedestrians only, vehicles will plummet through the corridor and used more for local traffic. It makes sense with the current 5,000 daily Algoma University students, 700 TMU/Rogers Cybersecurity students in the area rapidly growing along with countless other projects potentially coming, like a Rogers HQ (from 8200 Dixie, 2,000 workers) relocation plus a dozen condo towers and counting near the Go station.
3) Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster has priority on extending this LRT north and is averse to the 1 stop tunnel costs below.
4) Ontario Finance Minister Peter Bethlenfalvy made it clear that the business case and costs matter where the tunnel falls short significantly. An extra Billion dollars for 1 stop tunnel over a 4 stop surface route including important stops like Gage Park/City Hall doesn't make business sense.
5) Mayor Patrick Brown is still pushing his priority of the Tunnel, going as far to publicly attack the surface route and highlight the 2 lane bottleneck, he's obsessed with a compromise plan to pacify the minority voices of Downtown groups and 3 opposing members on council. Since the fall election, 2 have been replaced by progressives. The Brampton Nimbys are outnumbered and have lost their puppets on council. People in the city are upset as they watch the LRT being built to Steeles, once it becomes in operation it will be a physical daily reminder to all.
5) Despite Brown's strategy to attack the surface route, today 5/6 of the Nimby Councillors who voted against the 2015 surface route are gone and replaced by younger progressives who were angered at that decision. If we are forced to a vote over the surface again, it's a damn good chance for it to pass with a strong majority even if Brown, Palleschi and any other wildcard oppose which would be horrible optics in a future election for them.
6) All 5 PC MPP's in Brampton signed a commitment for funding the tunnel route before the 2022 Provincial election pushed by Brown at Council. Sure, makes a good photo op, but the folks who actually control the purse strings and design transit are already showing their disproval on the tunnel that was previously rejected by City of Brampton Staff in 2014/2015 by their own recommendation. We know the value of PC MPP's in Brampton who supported canceling Ryerson University, Go Rail bypass on Kitchener line, cut funding to Erin Oaks Kids facility for autism, half assed response to Peel Memorial. They're all just backbenchers falling in line with the party command.
7) With the 30% Design Docs out this spring for BOTH Tunnel and Surface route, hopefully we can get some of these government officials chiming in on funding to direct council on dropping the most unfeasible plan. Brown is likely going to want to put all our eggs in one Tunnel basket and try to kill off the surface route as he's been priming this month. All this would do is kick the can down the road indefinitely. If we can ditch the tunnel and get another funding commitment, City council is in a good position to get this LRT further north especially with 50/50 funded Fed/Provincial agreement as Hamilton received.
Any portion funded by residents as most likely asked with the Tunnel is going to be very unpopular with residents. Nobody is going to want to foot a cent out of tax dollars for any fraction of a Billion dollar tunnel when we had a fully funded surface solution that is still feasible.
The City is undergoing an Integrated Development Plan downtown to widen sidewalks on Main St which will remove 2 of the current 4 lanes forcing the new surface route into mixed traffic.
1) The original iteration of this Downtown IDP project was created by the Nimby's on council who voted down the LRT: Elaine Moore, her faction tried to block any future surface LRT after the 2015 vote. It was scaled back by 6 progressive councilors last term to allow an LRT to be constructed in 2 lanes without ripping up millions of dollars in interlocking Brick, the resurfacing of the 2 lanes will be cheaper asphalt. Urgency was forced on pushing this through by Region of Peel demanding to begin long overdue watermain replacement and other utility work and upgrade Main St in parallel.
2) A solution to the new mixed traffic problem is to get cars off Main St and utilize the ring of bypasses around downtown which the upcoming Queen BRT is likely to make use of. Make Main St open for transit, cycling and pedestrians only, vehicles will plummet through the corridor and used more for local traffic. It makes sense with the current 5,000 daily Algoma University students, 700 TMU/Rogers Cybersecurity students in the area rapidly growing along with countless other projects potentially coming, like a Rogers HQ (from 8200 Dixie, 2,000 workers) relocation plus a dozen condo towers and counting near the Go station.
3) Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster has priority on extending this LRT north and is averse to the 1 stop tunnel costs below.
4) Ontario Finance Minister Peter Bethlenfalvy made it clear that the business case and costs matter where the tunnel falls short significantly. An extra Billion dollars for 1 stop tunnel over a 4 stop surface route including important stops like Gage Park/City Hall doesn't make business sense.
5) Mayor Patrick Brown is still pushing his priority of the Tunnel, going as far to publicly attack the surface route and highlight the 2 lane bottleneck, he's obsessed with a compromise plan to pacify the minority voices of Downtown groups and 3 opposing members on council. Since the fall election, 2 have been replaced by progressives. The Brampton Nimbys are outnumbered and have lost their puppets on council. People in the city are upset as they watch the LRT being built to Steeles, once it becomes in operation it will be a physical daily reminder to all.
5) Despite Brown's strategy to attack the surface route, today 5/6 of the Nimby Councillors who voted against the 2015 surface route are gone and replaced by younger progressives who were angered at that decision. If we are forced to a vote over the surface again, it's a damn good chance for it to pass with a strong majority even if Brown, Palleschi and any other wildcard oppose which would be horrible optics in a future election for them.
6) All 5 PC MPP's in Brampton signed a commitment for funding the tunnel route before the 2022 Provincial election pushed by Brown at Council. Sure, makes a good photo op, but the folks who actually control the purse strings and design transit are already showing their disproval on the tunnel that was previously rejected by City of Brampton Staff in 2014/2015 by their own recommendation. We know the value of PC MPP's in Brampton who supported canceling Ryerson University, Go Rail bypass on Kitchener line, cut funding to Erin Oaks Kids facility for autism, half assed response to Peel Memorial. They're all just backbenchers falling in line with the party command.
7) With the 30% Design Docs out this spring for BOTH Tunnel and Surface route, hopefully we can get some of these government officials chiming in on funding to direct council on dropping the most unfeasible plan. Brown is likely going to want to put all our eggs in one Tunnel basket and try to kill off the surface route as he's been priming this month. All this would do is kick the can down the road indefinitely. If we can ditch the tunnel and get another funding commitment, City council is in a good position to get this LRT further north especially with 50/50 funded Fed/Provincial agreement as Hamilton received.
Any portion funded by residents as most likely asked with the Tunnel is going to be very unpopular with residents. Nobody is going to want to foot a cent out of tax dollars for any fraction of a Billion dollar tunnel when we had a fully funded surface solution that is still feasible.
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ShonTron
Moderator
5000 students at Algoma Brampton? That’s impressive for a campus with almost no visual presence in Downtown.
sixrings
Senior Member
So this whole thing was delayed needlessly and the price of everything has gone up. Great use of limited funds. It doesn’t even look like voting against these things helped the peoples political careers. Pretty pathetic.
ShonTron
Moderator
Elaine Moore really shot her self in the foot twice.