[Thanos]

There was a time when you just wouldn't throw your garbage on the street or from your car window for example. Now it's commonplace.

I'm not sure to which decade you're referring to. From what i've heard from those who grew up in the 60-70's, it was common to throw your garbage all over the street, where as now, they say they would get a big fat ticket.
Either you've obviously forgotten your youth or you never lived in that era and thus know nothing about what was common back then.

 

[tkip]

I'm not sure to which decade you're referring to. From what i've heard from those who grew up in the 60-70's, it was common to throw your garbage all over the street, where as now, they say they would get a big fat ticket.
Either you've obviously forgotten your youth or you never lived in that era and thus know nothing about what was common back then.

I have no idea what city you were living in, back then. You're describing a Toronto I never witnessed. I find it strange that you're insisting this was the norm back then when it was clearly not the case.

On my street, in my neighborhood, at school, on transit, people use to put their waste in garbage cans. Not just toss it out windows or on the street as they walked by. They rarely littered. Or blatantly littered. People use to use the ashtrays in their cars, not throw cigarette butts out the windows. It was socially unaceptable to do this at the time. But I began to notice changes back in the 90's and it's been accelerating since.

Chatting with various friends my age and it's the same memories.

None of us remember seeing this happen on any regular occurance as youth. And some of my friends are around 50 and been here their entire lives. We also remember a time when people would automatically offer seats to the elderly and pregnant women and now I rarely see this happening. We're all experiencing the same thrend here and it's the disappearance of civility and manners.

I still find it strange that some are arguing aginst this.

Someone in their teens or early 20's I can understand arguing because for them this is the norm and they wouldn't remember it being any different but for someone like me in my 40's? Things are different and not necessarily for the better.......

 

[kettal]

That I stated without hesitation that I'll still be around 25 years from now should have clued you in that I'm not one of those "old foggies" you're talking about. I may sound older because of my humble blue-collar upbringing and reserved nature. I find it pitiful that you seem to only value the opinion of your peer group and fail to socialize with older folk. I know people in their 30s, 40s and 50s that I get along with well, and I often marvel at how much world's apart their life experience decades ago contrasts to now. My neighbours who are fine, upstanding members of the community IMO complained to me recently that their son had picked up "lewd" behaviours from the kids at preschool and is becoming quite the hellion. Is he the exception to the rule, or are youth more and more being exposed to adult-themes at younger ages? That was my point. The way kids talk to their elders these days is disgraceful. So in my nostalgia, I remember my childhood (the '80s) of restraint and boundaries and respect for all types of people based on merit.

So being a 10-year-old child at the time gives you enough perspective to create this comparison? Do you understand that children's brains are different from those of adults and there is a reason why your memories of that time are fundamentally different to your current perception, and it's because you now have functioning frontal lobes. Actually, what I have seen you say, you probably don't have functioning frontal lobes.

 

[Second_in_pie]

On my street, in my neighborhood, at school, on transit, people use to put their waste in garbage cans. Not just toss it out windows or on the street as they walked by. They rarely littered. Or blatantly littered. People use to use the ashtrays in their cars, not throw cigarette butts out the windows. It was socially unaceptable to do this at the time. But I began to notice changes back in the 90's and it's been accelerating since.

None of us remember seeing this happen on any regular occurance as youth. And some of my friends are around 50 and been here their entire lives. We also remember a time when people would automatically offer seats to the elderly and pregnant women and now I rarely see this happening. We're all experiencing the same thrend here and it's the disappearance of civility and manners.

Wow, really? You see people toss their garbage out of their windows instead of putting it in the bin? I have to admit, I've never seen that happen in my entire life, anywhere.

I'll guess that a pretty big reason that people don't use ashtrays in cars is because they don't have them anymore. Smokers are a relatively small minority group, and you don't find car dealers selling cars with ashtrays.

You rarely see people offer seats to the elderly or pregnant women? I guess you should take the TTC more often. I see that all the time, and a large amount of the time, the people offering up seats look younger than 35.

 

[Archivist]

I was going to leave this thread alone, too, partially because I think tkip has been generous in modifying his original statements and accommodating other's opinions, so I see no need to attack or come on strong, even if I don't really agree. Largely, I think we live in a world where what is acceptable is constantly shifting - smoking is a good example of this - I recall seeing photos of meetings in the Ontario government circa 1972 with a big wonking ashtray in the middle of the table - a sight that is scarcely less jarring to our eyes than if one of the men around the table was completely naked . Our laws and our culture around smoking has shifted so dramatically and so definitively that it would be truly shocking for someone to light up in the house of another person without asking first. This is a good thing, it is a well mannered and sensible thing, and in 2010 we are immeasurably more polite, conscious of where we were in 1972, or 1985, or 1998. Same as with some of the other comments people have made about how we handle difference - minorities or gay people - there's no question we're ahead of the game, and that's primarily a moral issue, no?

It makes perfect sense to me that other habits might slide. James Howard Kunstler is quite amusing on this, his bile rising every time he sees a neck tattoo or a bank converted into a tattoo parlor. I'm still a bit unconvinced that we were cleaner in the past, partially because I don't find the city especially dirty now, and I recall the seventies when it really was acceptable, and done by most, to simply throw garbage around, especially in rural areas. My parents used to have a "dump" near our cottage where we'd just throw things we didn't need any more, everyone did it, nowadays that's actually pretty unthinkable for cottagers to do something like that. As for the city - hard to tell. In the absence of some real measure, and a measure that is balanced for the different levels of population that the city holds, I find it hard to tell.

It doesn't stop me from cringing at what some people do, and once in a while, getting this feeling that I need to get away from here. When I do, though, and I end up in other cities (like in England), it's sort of a relief to come back, I have to say.

 

[toraerach]

I'll guess that a pretty big reason that people don't use ashtrays in cars is because they don't have them anymore. Smokers are a relatively small minority group, and you don't find car dealers selling cars with ashtrays.

And now that you can't smoke inside businesses anymore, smokers are forced out on to the street. Back when smoking indoors was legal, establishments provided ashtrays to keep their premises clean/not on fire. Now, as far as many of those same businesses are concerned, it's the city's problem. Ideally, the city would provide ashtrays, but they don't. A good deal of those cigarette butts out on the street are the result of the indoor ban. Personally, I think it's preferable to the situation we had beforehand (and I'm a smoker).

 

[tkip]

Regardless...

Regardless of manufactures not putting ashtrays into cars anymore or people smoking outside, it doesn't excuse the person for tossing their butts anywhere. There's no excuse. The smoker could just decide not to smoke rather than litter.

We're trying, once again, to excuse people instead of holding them responsible for something they do. My mother is a smoker and she never tossed her butts into the street. She found a bin or something to put it in.

When my father begain throwing his butts out the window rather in the ashtray in his car, I called him out on this and questioned him on why to started doing this because he never use to. He wasn't happy but admitted he started because others were doing it.

It's a domino effect.

As for the transit and manners and not enough people giving up their seats? I practically live on the TTC, since I don't drive and I can absolutely say that it's not that uncommon to see a elderly person come aboard a vechicle and very few people offer seats. You either see people pretend they don't see the elderly person or they glance around, hoping that someone else will offer. Then maybe someone offers their seat.

Ditto for a pregnant woman. I've been noticing this trend for a long time. It's baffling why people are insisting that either I'm somehow imaging things or that this sort of behaviour I'm witnessing now has always been there and I somehow missed it. People are in denial.

What's the saying, ignorance is bliss....

 

[Archivist]

Again, it's baffling that people are insisting that everything is fine and nothing has changed because it's nonsense... There's some kind of denial going on here....

No, it's not. You've offered statements. Prove to me, by some method, that there are more cigarette butts in the street today than in say, 1984 or 1974. I simply don't believe you. And the larger, far more important customer of not smoking in public places, in which dramatic change for the better that actually affects the lives of people, you ignore. The denial is all yours. Offer me proof.

 

[ladyscraper]

"In my day, kids used to work 23 hours a day and used the money to buy their mom a present! You could also buy a candy bar for a nickel!.. and don't get me started on that hip hop music!"

 

[tkip]

No, it's not. You've offered statements. Prove to me, by some method, that there are more cigarette butts in the street today than in say, 1984 or 1974. I simply don't believe you. And the larger, far more important customer of not smoking in public places, in which dramatic change for the better that actually affects the lives of people, you ignore. The denial is all yours. Offer me proof.

I now have to provide photographic evidence to testify to my statements that there's more litter on the streets than when I was a kid in the 70's? Are you freaking kidding me?

See, this is the heart of the problem. Denial.

People want to pretend that everything is fine so they can contiue doing what they do instead of actually saying that maybe there is a trend where things aren't as peachy as they proclaim and that maybe, there has been a decline regarding the overall code of conduct amongst the public.

But that would actually mean taking a closer look at their own habits and behaviour and we can't have that, hence why I suspect posts declaring that I'm out of line or making stuff up. It's just so much easier to go after the messenger than deal with the message itself.

There is a huge disconnect going on out there and a portion of the public just doesn't want to face any kind of scrutiny regarding behaviour and attitudes.

 

[that_girl_there]

I think we've gotten to the heart of the problem alright. tkip likes to make blanket assertions with no proof to back it up. He/she responds to factual and well-reasoned responses with cheesy personal anicdotes ("I spoke with friends and they agreed...") that don't really prove his/her point.

Why am I so angry? Because you're an idiot and I've wasted too much time trying to show you that.

Your whole argument about parenting - I don't know if you're aware, but strict and lenient parents continue to exist. You had strict parents. Maybe some of your friends had lenient parents. I had parents that were in the middle and I found that great. Some of my friends had strict parents. Some had lenient parents. Blah blah blah. I don't think parents are becoming more lenient, I still have friends who have been beaten by their parents, who were scared to bring home a bad report card back in high school, who had curfews and got grounded and couldn't come out at night. Are you even a parent? Do you know parents? Or do you just see what you want to see? Notice only the jerks and not the good people? Cause that's the impression I get of you. The rest of us see that people in this city are generally alright, that people's behaviour, especially towards minorities, has vastly improved. It's just you. So clearly we've gotten to the heart of the problem - it's narrow-minded people like you.

 

[that_girl_there]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosy_retrospection

Something to think about...

 

[Second_in_pie]

We're trying, once again, to excuse people instead of holding them responsible for something they do. My mother is a smoker and she never tossed her butts into the street. She found a bin or something to put it in..

I'm wondering, is that even safe? For some reason, I think that it could be a better idea to just put up with cigarette butts on the sidewalk, rather than risk garbage bins going up in flames around the city.

I'm going to disregard the rest of your comments because I see contrary evidence to your allegations pretty much every day I'm in the city.

 

[tkip]

Right....

Why am I so angry? Because you're an idiot and I've wasted too much time trying to show you that.

The fact that you felt the need to once again, respond and act like you're some of target and victem here is interesting.

Your posts are all about how you personally feel like you've been singled out which is strange because no one is trying to pin this on you. So why all the hostility and rage? What's really going on here?

All you had to do was simply ignore the posts if they bothered you that much but instead you resorted to name calling during what I can only describe as an online temper tantrum.

Sure there are some parents that are still strict and enforce discipline. I never said that there was none. Only that there are less parents now that properly set boundaries and discipline. I see this all the time. I see it at work.

But something about my message really bothers you and you need to take a closer at the reason rather than going online and calling people names.

You won't win debates this way...

 

[urbandreamer]

Well, get on any TTC bus.... Thirty years ago, was the TTC used as a garbage dump by low class lazy fools?