[Steve X]

I think some of us needs to file a complaint about underground transit as it's more expensive for similar travel times and we don't get cell reception from the big 3 as they selfishly refuse get on board with T-connect. Instead they focus on stuff like creating a mental awareness day with the intent of free advertisement. Shame on them.

 

[Adjei]

The province needs to hold their ground. Sick and tired of this everything needs to be underground mentality in this city, thats one of the reasons why it takes so long to build transit. Other world cities like Amsterdam and Sydney which look better than Toronto have built and are building elevated transit with no issues. I saw elevated transit in Amsterdam through areas which put are Leslieville and Flemo Park to shame. If they can stomach elevated transit, I don't see what y these areas cant. Frankly what is so special about this Leslieville area, looks like a typical Toronto area, you would think it looks like somewhere in Barcelona or something. Just another overhyped area with residents having a sense of entitlement maybe due to their overvalued housing. I wonder why they aren't up in arms about wooden hydro poles, rundown public realm, hydro wires all over the place in their area and advocate for that to be fixed.

Also frankly comparisons to Eglinton West are misguided as not all it is being asked to be buried. They are elevating some parts of it and burying some which is what is being done here, you don't bury the whole thing. Frankly the plan being brought forward for Eglinton West is better than the city's plan of putting it in the middle of the road, they are so infatuated with this option. Look at the bias report they gave about elevate transit on Eglinton West. There is a hatefest against elevated transit in this city which starts from city of Toronto down to the media especially the Toronto Star who seems to be running negative articles daily about this line. The Relief Line brought forward by the city was a stub of a line and knowing how long transit is built in this city we would have been waiting 50 years for the Relief Line north to be built. At least with the Ontario Line it reaches Eglinton and has a western extension in the first phase. Toronto needs to grow up and stop behaving like a village and behave like a real world city. Amsterdam and Sydney for example have some lessons to teach us.

 

[44 North]

Also frankly comparisons to Eglinton West are misguided as not all it is being asked to be buried. They are elevating some parts of it and burying some which is what is being done here, you don't bury the whole thing. Frankly the plan being brought forward for Eglinton West is better than the city's plan of putting it in the middle of the road, they are so infatuated with this option. Look at the bias report they gave about elevate transit on Eglinton West. There is a hatefest against elevated transit in this city which starts from city of Toronto down to the media especially the Toronto Star who seems to be running negative articles daily about this line. The Relief Line brought forward by the city was a stub of a line and knowing how long transit is built in this city we would have been waiting 50 years for the Relief Line north to be built. At least with the Ontario Line it reaches Eglinton and has a western extension in the first phase. Toronto needs to grow up and stop behaving like a village and behave like a real world city. Amsterdam and Sydney for example have some lessons to teach us.

But unlike Queen or Pape where this "Ontario Line" is to be tunneleded, Eglinton West actually has room for an elevated viaduct. And it's sort of conducive to the highway-like roadway as it is today. So why not support all of it being elevated for the reasons you mention?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I guess @OneCity was right about the downtown elites. Ridiculous behaviour from the supposed smart set.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I guess @OneCity was right about the downtown elites. Ridiculous behaviour from the supposed smart set.

He was right all along that part of this transit debate has always been about partisan politics. Frankly, I doubt that there would be so much opposition from the community to the local councilor to the Toronto news media had it been the Liberals proposing the Ontario Line. You cannot deny the irony that the same political demographics that promoted elevated LRTs in Scarborough are now opposing elevated transit in Leslieville. Unlike in Scarborough where there was a fact-based defense to be offered for the LRT, there is no fact-based defense to lean onto here. Elevated transit through Leslieville is a perfectly viable transit option that offers a lot of potential upside from potentially being a cheaper option, to enabling cross-platform transfers with the GO and streetcar system.

Pay attention to how none of the public opposition to the Ontario Line is rooted in concerns discussed in this thread, such as the capacity of the Ontario Line compared the Relief Line.

 

[robmausser]

So much better than transfer city. Since we've decided Ford's should be in office it's all been clear sailing. No debates. No one upset. Ford Ford Ford. Subways subways subways.

Transfer City. LOL. I've never heard that. It's great.

There are aspects of Transit City I liked (specifically the parts being built right now, and Waterfront West) but that's just funny.

 

[OneCity]

He was right all along that part of this transit debate has always been about partisan politics. Frankly, I doubt that there would be so much opposition from the community to the local councilor to the Toronto news media had it been the Liberals proposing the Ontario Line. You cannot deny the irony that the same political demographics that promoted elevated LRTs in Scarborough are now opposing elevated transit in Leslieville. Unlike in Scarborough where there was a fact-based defense to be offered for the LRT, there is no fact-based defense to lean onto here. Elevated transit through Leslieville is a perfectly viable transit option that offers a lot of potential upside from potentially being a cheaper option, to enabling cross-platform transfers with the GO and streetcar system.

Pay attention to how none of the public opposition to the Ontario Line is rooted in concerns discussed in this thread, such as the capacity of the Ontario Line compared the Relief Line.

We have the same NDP/union activist groups protesting against above ground transit that were a few months ago protesting the opposite. This isn't even about significant outrage from the public, as much as it is trying to find anything to oppose and stick it to the Ford Conservatives. The polarizing hypocrisy says it all about Toronto transit politics

Further, the concerns with the Scarborough LRT transit plans we're far more extensive then what we have here:

1. RT needed to be better connected to the Centre with LRT or subway for both Line 2 and Line 4.
2. Crosstown should have been atleast grade separated the eastern portion to atleast Kennedy

Neither of these are related to the OL, and I also believe the elevated portion of the SLRT was the least of the residents concerns, albeit very understandable many are opposed when the line is constantly shut during down in poor weather conditions for years, but that could have been mitigated with a better technology similar to what we see on other parts of line 2.

 

[TossYourJacket]

This isn't even about significant outrage from the public, as much as it is trying to find anything to stick it to the Ford Conservatives. The polarizing hypocrisy says it all about Toronto transit politics

One could argue that sticking Eglinton West and the SSE underground but putting this line elevated through areas that didn't vote for Ford is just Ford trying to stick it to people who didn't vote for him, and reward those who did. It works both ways. It's why having politicians run our transit plans is utterly stupid. It turns transit, which is a public utility, into a political football and then nothing gets done.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

He was right all along that part of this transit debate has always been about partisan politics. Frankly, I doubt that there would be so much opposition from the community to the local councilor to the Toronto news media had it been the Liberals proposing the Ontario Line. You cannot deny the irony that the same political demographics that promoted elevated LRTs in Scarborough are now opposing elevated transit in Leslieville. Unlike in Scarborough where there was a fact-based defense to be offered for the LRT, there is no fact-based defense to lean onto here. Elevated transit through Leslieville is a perfectly viable transit option that offers a lot of potential upside from potentially being a cheaper option, to enabling cross-platform transfers with the GO and streetcar system.

Pay attention to how none of the public opposition to the Ontario Line is rooted in concerns discussed in this thread, such as the capacity of the Ontario Line compared the Relief Line.

Without a doubt, just look at how the protesters mentioned Dougie every other sentence when possible. I don't like the plan at all (especially the west side portion), but the reaction was unnecessary and shows why people slam downtown all the time. Nothing in the group's message mentioned the critical capacity issues or even cell service, as you said. The hysterics here will be used against transit advocated when sheppard east or jane comes up, mark it down.

We have the same NDP/union activist groups protesting against above ground transit that were a few months ago protesting the opposite. This isn't even about significant outrage from the public, as much as it is trying to find anything to oppose and stick it to the Ford Conservatives. The polarizing hypocrisy says it all about Toronto transit politics

Further, the concerns with the Scarborough LRT transit plans we're far more extensive then what we have here:

1. RT needed to be better connected to the Centre with LRT or subway for both Line 2 and Line 4.
2. Crosstown should have been atleast grade separated the eastern portion to atleast Kennedy

Neither of these are related to the OL, and I also believe the elevated portion of the SLRT, was the least of the residents concerns, although understandable many are opposed when the line is constantly shut during down in poor weather conditions for years. But I understand that could be mitigated with a better technology similar to what we see on other parts of line 2.

I agree. At least there was a legit argument for the subway, even if you disagree. There is no reason not to have elevated rail in south riverdale/leslieville, even if the old relief line comes back. Just ridiculous behavior all around by people who claim to be "pro-transit"

One could argue that sticking Eglinton West and the SSE underground but putting this line elevated through areas that didn't vote for Ford is just Ford trying to stick it to people who didn't vote for him, and reward those who did. It works both ways. It's why having politicians run our transit plans is utterly stupid. It turns transit, which is a public utility, into a political football and then nothing gets done.

Can't disagree with this, another self inflicted problem by Dougie, he could have just left the relief line alone. The city could have implemented RL west and north and not just the pape-osgoode stub either.

 

[OneCity]

Without a doubt, just look at how the protesters mentioned Dougie every other sentence when possible. I don't like the plan at all (especially the west side portion), but the reaction was unnecessary and shows why people slam downtown all the time. Nothing in the group's message mentioned the critical capacity issues or even cell service, as you said. The hysterics here will be used against transit advocated when sheppard east or jane comes up, mark it down.

I agree. At least there was a legit argument for the subway, even if you disagree. There is no reason not to have elevated rail in south riverdale/leslieville, even if the old relief line comes back. Just ridiculous behavior all around by people who claim to be "pro-transit"


Can't disagree with this, another self inflicted problem by Dougie, he could have just left the relief line alone. The city could have implement RL west and north and not just the pape-osgoode stub either.

And before some jump, to be clear these Conservatives are certainly playing politics here as well. They could have expedited both relief and the Line 2 extension if they truly wanted. But at the end of the day these Cons are playing a far better, game of transit politics. These current plans will have very solid public support, a very good case to implement based on the overall benefits, timelines and urgency. The biggest gripe the general public will have with the Conservatives on transit file is the urgency to build.

Sadly, i don't see the Left easily giving the Right the win on the OL and if they choose to really dig in on the elevated portions this may really drag out for some time and likely giving the Conservatives exactly what they wanted to see. The can claim the opponents want to delay the line, it will certainly be further delayed and im almost certain the real public support isnt even there to begin with, compared to what we saw with cancelling Transit City as a front line Mayoral campaign issue. That external delay alone would be a big political win for the Conservatives

 

[crs1026]

^I don't see this as right or left, because there are so many examples of where the Cons take a lefty slant on something and the left takes a con stand.

But I do see an inconsistency between rejecting at-ground or (heaven forbid) above-ground for Eglinton West (Con supporters, affluent) and insisting on it on the Ontario Line (likely not Con supporters, lower income) and at Davenport (not Con supporters, urban attitudes).

Sooner or later Toronto will have to take the idea of elevated transit seriously. If so, it belongs in affluent and Con-supporting areas just as much as anywhere else.

- Paul

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

^I don't see this as right or left, because there are so many examples of where the Cons take a lefty slant on something and the left takes a con stand.

But I do see an inconsistency between rejecting at-ground or (heaven forbid) above-ground for Eglinton West (Con supporters, affluent) and insisting on it on the Ontario Line (likely not Con supporters, lower income) and at Davenport (not Con supporters, urban attitudes).

Sooner or later Toronto will have to take the idea of elevated transit seriously. If so, it belongs in affluent and Con-supporting areas just as much as anywhere else.

- Paul

Agree - I think the case against it along preexisting rail corridors, industrial areas or otherwise areas with low impact is especially weak - though the fact that the province (via MX) have reneged on measures that would have ameliorated the impact, the inconsistency of choosing this mode of delivery as well as politicians using burial as a wedge issue has all but salted the earth on this.

AoD

 

[OneCity]

^I don't see this as right or left, because there are so many examples of where the Cons take a lefty slant on something and the left takes a con stand.

But I do see an inconsistency between rejecting at-ground or (heaven forbid) above-ground for Eglinton West (Con supporters, affluent) and insisting on it on the Ontario Line (likely not Con supporters, lower income) and at Davenport (not Con supporters, urban attitudes).

Sooner or later Toronto will have to take the idea of elevated transit seriously. If so, it belongs in affluent and Con-supporting areas just as much as anywhere else.

- Paul

To be more accurate I see this is the 'activist' NDP vs. Ford Conservatives. It's sure as heck looks to be the same activist/union protesters we saw fighting to elevate Scarborough, now fighting to bury the OL. This is completely political and inconsistent.

And agree, there is certainly alot of common ground between many central Liberals and Conservative in this City/Province, but there are also quite a few supporters on council of the activist groups in the City, which is a big reason Rob became Mayor with the questionable influence they had in the previous era on unions and transit. I also believe this to be a big part of the political warfare that has gone in the City to prevent a Ford 'win' on transit since and now at the Provincial level with Doug seemingly taking some backhanded jabs at Toronto council since he took office. Miller NDP vs. Ford(s) Cons in a sense, only i see Ford having more middle ground political support on the transit file, far more public support on transit and it is very unlikely to expect a voter supported overturn on these current projects now that they are in Provincial hands

 

[MisterF]

He was right all along that part of this transit debate has always been about partisan politics. Frankly, I doubt that there would be so much opposition from the community to the local councilor to the Toronto news media had it been the Liberals proposing the Ontario Line. You cannot deny the irony that the same political demographics that promoted elevated LRTs in Scarborough are now opposing elevated transit in Leslieville.

Okay it has to be said: this is complete BS. The opposition to the Davenport Diamond overpass was just as strong and it was proposed under a Liberal government in a Liberal part of town. The opposition isn't about partisan politics, it's about a new line that for no reason replaced a line that had widespread buy in from the neighbourhood and could have been under construction by now. This is entirely the premier's fault, and that would be just as true if a Liberal premier did the same.

All over the world new transit lines tend to be put underground in areas that are densely populated and have less room, while being above ground in more outlying areas with more room (like Scarborough). That has nothing to do with politics. Not everything has to be viewed through a partisan lens.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Okay it has to be said: this is complete BS. The opposition to the Davenport Diamond overpass was just as strong and it was proposed under a Liberal government in a Liberal part of town. The opposition isn't about partisan politics, it's about a new line that for no reason replaced a line that had widespread buy in from the neighbourhood and could have been under construction by now. This is entirely the premier's fault, and that would be just as true if a Liberal premier did the same.

All over the world new transit lines tend to be put underground in areas that are densely populated and have less room, while being above ground in more outlying areas with more room (like Scarborough). That has nothing to do with politics. Not everything has to be viewed through a partisan lens.

The issue isn't the opposition itself, it's the reason for it. There is nothing wrong with above ground rapid transit, it's the way the premier went about it, and the lack of info we have right now. And many of these people supported the Scarborough LRT or SRT extension. It's about the lack of consistency. That said, you're right about the premier.