[generalcanada]

if anyone cares. that court of appeal decision from last month against the HDI had its written reasons released last wednesday

Haudenosaunee Development Institute v. Metrolinx - Court of Appeal for Ontario

coadecisions.ontariocourts.ca

and the original judges written reasons: https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...SUkpAAAAAQANLzIwMjNvbnNjMTE2OQE&resultIndex=1
edit: apperently that was for the HDI case only.

this is the original LSO one: https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2023/2023onsc1169/2023onsc1169.html

 

[officedweller]

Why do you suppose catenary was selected? Serious answers only, not 'because Metrolinx thought it would look cool on a brochure'.

Here are the catenary references from the December 2020 Preliminary Design Business Case.

NOTE: It'll be an overhead 1500 volt DC system, so the electrical transformers and rectifiers will presumably be in substations,
not on-board as noted in the articles posted by W.K. Lis above for ac systems, and the issues with added vehicle weight won't arise.
1500 volts DC is also a step up from the typical 750 volts DC.
The article posted by W.K. Lis also says that 1500 volts DC (vs 750 volts DC) allows wider spacing / fewer substations.

https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/upload/v1663237577/Documents/Metrolinx/2020-12-08-Ontario-Line-PDBC-Public-Final.pdf

 

[NoahB]

Posting this as I dont think anyone has yet.

Metrolinx to cut down thousands of trees in Don Valley for Ontario Line

The removal of the trees comes just weeks after the provincial transit agency cut down dozens of trees in Moss Park and Osgoode Hall.

www.thestar.com

Metrolinx is cutting down about 2,787 trees in phases along the Don Valley this month. The notice says they might cut more if they need too. I'm not fmail with this area so cant tell how required cutting this much is.
Mx says:

This work is needed to create space to relocate utilities and study ground conditions in an area where a new bridge will carry subway trains across the valley and through the northern part of the line. These spaces will also accommodate future construction activities.

How much staging space are they using on the don isntead of nearby feilds and parking lots?

Here is the Mx notice talking about the work.

 

[smallspy]

^ The OL was specc’d by ML, who were given a mandate to do differently than TTC spec, and to use different expertise (some of it recruited from afar) so that none of the old TTC “not invented here” mentality leaked into the design.

Some of those expat experts did indeed have vast experience building systems that look nothing like a TTC subway. There was a period where in the transition from RL to OL where the Ml brass were vocal that the traditional TTC spec was not necessary or justified by default. The whole discussion about platform lengths, headways, carbody size, etc was very much framed by the desire to not be trapped by traditional TTC thinking…. and to show there are new faces in charge.

I have no view on whether one option is better than the other in this application, and nothing in the TTC spec is inherently evil…..but there is good reason to suspect that consciously or otherwise, the designers felt an onus to “do something different” and in that space, changing the electrical supply was quite acceptable.

- Paul

This is exactly what happened. The choice was done in spite of the history of the design of the system as it operates today, and forces the creation of a separate network that is completely and totally incompatible with the existing system.

And the problem is that doing so will not allow them to take into account any of the efficiencies possible of a bigger system. Rather than just a yard to wash the trains and perform light maintenance, they need a facility that has the ability to lift heavy components out of the cars, and even the cars themselves. Because they are using a different line voltage, they can't tap into the TTC's existing 600V DC system and have to build an entirely new system from scratch. If there are any delays with the rolling stock deliveries, or defects that result in all of the trains being pulled out of service, there is no potential to borrow rolling stock from the other divisions.

Had they built this line out on the suburbs were it didn't have the potential to connect with the existing system (or have very limited connections), then I wouldn't have an issue with choosing a different design. But the Ontario Line goes right through downtown, and interfaces with elements of the existing systems at almost every block. It's silly and wasteful, and is so representative of the harmful "We know better than you" mindset that permeates through Metrolinx.

Dan

 

[W. K. Lis]

Many of those trees are weed trees growing on industrial waste that was dumped there. To get rid at or recycle that industrial waste, they'll have to cut down those weed trees, and then be able to fix that land for proper growth.

 

[Sunnyside]

This is exactly what happened. The choice was done in spite of the history of the design of the system as it operates today, and forces the creation of a separate network that is completely and totally incompatible with the existing system.

And the problem is that doing so will not allow them to take into account any of the efficiencies possible of a bigger system. Rather than just a yard to wash the trains and perform light maintenance, they need a facility that has the ability to lift heavy components out of the cars, and even the cars themselves. Because they are using a different line voltage, they can't tap into the TTC's existing 600V DC system and have to build an entirely new system from scratch. If there are any delays with the rolling stock deliveries, or defects that result in all of the trains being pulled out of service, there is no potential to borrow rolling stock from the other divisions.

Had they built this line out on the suburbs were it didn't have the potential to connect with the existing system (or have very limited connections), then I wouldn't have an issue with choosing a different design. But the Ontario Line goes right through downtown, and interfaces with elements of the existing systems at almost every block. It's silly and wasteful, and is so representative of the harmful "We know better than you" mindset that permeates through Metrolinx.

Dan

It doesn’t really seem like a big deal that they’ve chosen standard gauge. While yes, the OL is now limited in its ability to interface with the existing TTC subway, does it really need to? Were we ever going to actually interline/through run with the DRL? The issue of yards etc is something that Line 5 and 6 also have had to deal with (moreso relevant to the former, which is closer to a subway than not).

The decision to use a more off-the-shelf type of tech for the line may have some negative impacts on the TTC, but opens a lot of doors for Metrolinx into the future. We know they hope to extend the OL north (likely elevated) and eventually build an interregional line. Doing that at TTC gauge doesn’t make any sense, much less with third rail. And, while such a goal seems fantastical, the province has been planning “medium capacity transit” and an interregional line(s) since the 70s. Setting the OL up with the best/a very flexible technology is a first step for future governments to actually build said line easily, instead of using a boondoggle monorail or ICTS. This will pay massive dividends for the city and region for decades.

A similar argument can be made for our LRTs. While they are incompatible with the streetcar system, we can effectively build an overlayed standard gauge LRT network long into the future. It is all a much bigger picture than just the existing TTC.

 

[Jaye101]

This is exactly what happened. The choice was done in spite of the history of the design of the system as it operates today, and forces the creation of a separate network that is completely and totally incompatible with the existing system.

And the problem is that doing so will not allow them to take into account any of the efficiencies possible of a bigger system. Rather than just a yard to wash the trains and perform light maintenance, they need a facility that has the ability to lift heavy components out of the cars, and even the cars themselves. Because they are using a different line voltage, they can't tap into the TTC's existing 600V DC system and have to build an entirely new system from scratch. If there are any delays with the rolling stock deliveries, or defects that result in all of the trains being pulled out of service, there is no potential to borrow rolling stock from the other divisions.

Had they built this line out on the suburbs were it didn't have the potential to connect with the existing system (or have very limited connections), then I wouldn't have an issue with choosing a different design. But the Ontario Line goes right through downtown, and interfaces with elements of the existing systems at almost every block. It's silly and wasteful, and is so representative of the harmful "We know better than you" mindset that permeates through Metrolinx.

Dan

You make excellent points I also thought the same.

Then I thought... Hmm, the use of standard gauge rail, and pantograph... Combined with the fact the line runs alongside GO at both the east and west sides of Downtown. Has it ever been considered that Metrolinx wants to create future provision to use future GO trains through the central tunnel?

 

[JSF-1]

You make excellent points I also thought the same.

Then I thought... Hmm, the use of standard gauge rail, and pantograph... Combined with the fact the line runs alongside GO at both the east and west sides of Downtown. Has it ever been considered that Metrolinx wants to create future provision to use future GO trains through the central tunnel?

I would assume no since even if ML uses single level EMU's for GO RER the GO Network platforms will be lower than the OL's even after they are raised for level boarding with the current GO fleet. So sure they may be able to use the tunnel but they wouldn't be able to stop anywhere. This also assumes ML doesn't buy bi-level EMU's for RER since I don't think the OL's tunnel could accommodate them, it certainly won't be able to accommodate the current fleet of bi-levels with an electric locomotive.

 

[Sunnyside]

You make excellent points I also thought the same.

Then I thought... Hmm, the use of standard gauge rail, and pantograph... Combined with the fact the line runs alongside GO at both the east and west sides of Downtown. Has it ever been considered that Metrolinx wants to create future provision to use future GO trains through the central tunnel?

I think it’s the opposite, they may want to operate OL style trains to/from GO lines. Or at least keep the option to use conventional tracks open.

 

[ARG1]

You make excellent points I also thought the same.

Then I thought... Hmm, the use of standard gauge rail, and pantograph... Combined with the fact the line runs alongside GO at both the east and west sides of Downtown. Has it ever been considered that Metrolinx wants to create future provision to use future GO trains through the central tunnel?

I think it’s the opposite, they may want to operate OL style trains to/from GO lines. Or at least keep the option to use conventional tracks open.

The Ontario Line will use a signalling system that is almost certainly going to be incompatible with mainline rail and GO. Then, PSDs would require GO to use very specific rolling stock. In short, the chance of any interoperability is basically 0.

 

[Sunnyside]

The Ontario Line will use a signalling system that is almost certainly going to be incompatible with mainline rail and GO. Then, PSDs would require GO to use very specific rolling stock. In short, the chance of any interoperability is basically 0.

I have no doubt your right, and thank you for this clarification. In the context of the conversation and my prior point, the OL is still more flexible than a TTC subway in any case. It keeps lots of doors open.

 

[Jaye101]

Looking more like a White Elephant than anything in the name of flexibility or practicality. We just got rid of our former resident White Elephant might as well make a new one. Same Line number and colour too! I wonder what unknown caveats are hiding in plain sight. I guess we should all stay tuned.

 

[ARG1]

Looking more like a White Elephant than anything in the name of flexibility or practicality. We just got rid of our former resident White Elephant might as well make a new one. Same Line number and colour too! I wonder what unknown caveats are hiding in plain sight. I guess we should all stay tuned.

Except our former white elephant was an untested and unproven technology pushed by a provincial government invested in the tech. This "White Elephant" is a standard tech used globally, moreso than our existing subway system.

 

[Sunnyside]

Looking more like a White Elephant than anything in the name of flexibility or practicality. We just got rid of our former resident White Elephant might as well make a new one. Same Line number and colour too! I wonder what unknown caveats are hiding in plain sight. I guess we should all stay tuned.

The Toronto definition of white elephant is clearly much different from what people usually mean. The SRT is the product of negligence, deferrals and cost cutting, so quite the opposite. We are paying for our ignorance today.

The real white elephant is the continued deep bore extensions of our treasured TTC gauge subways. Sheppard for instance can’t just be torn down- we have to extend it in a very expensive way for it to be useful.

Let’s see how the REM handles things if your worried about the technology choice.

 

[smallspy]

It doesn’t really seem like a big deal that they’ve chosen standard gauge. While yes, the OL is now limited in its ability to interface with the existing TTC subway, does it really need to? Were we ever going to actually interline/through run with the DRL? The issue of yards etc is something that Line 5 and 6 also have had to deal with (moreso relevant to the former, which is closer to a subway than not).

Read my response again, as it's pretty clear my thoughts on all of that.

No one is seriously suggesting that interlining is an option. I certainly didn't in my previous reply, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.

The decision to use a more off-the-shelf type of tech for the line may have some negative impacts on the TTC, but opens a lot of doors for Metrolinx into the future. We know they hope to extend the OL north (likely elevated) and eventually build an interregional line. Doing that at TTC gauge doesn’t make any sense, much less with third rail. And, while such a goal seems fantastical, the province has been planning “medium capacity transit” and an interregional line(s) since the 70s. Setting the OL up with the best/a very flexible technology is a first step for future governments to actually build said line easily, instead of using a boondoggle monorail or ICTS. This will pay massive dividends for the city and region for decades.

Does it though? For as "off the shelf" as they bandy it all to be, the equipment used on the Ontario Line is no more off the shelf as the current Toronto subway stock. Hell, there is basically no "shelf" for subway equipment as it is all so highly customized for each location it's required to run in.

What isn't customized, however, is the equipment used on the rolling stock. Motors, gearboxes, air conditioners, control equipment, doors, couplers, brakes, to name but a few - those are all elements that have multiple suppliers and are all built largely the same. And it's no different for the existing subway cars.

I don't know why you think that only the Ontario Line could be made into some interregional line. The subway has run outside of the City of Toronto since 2017.

The way the Ontario Line is currently scheduled to be built, it will be just as awkward to use it as "medium capacity transit" as the current subway system. It's certainly no more flexible (and arguably less, as it can't be used on the existing subway).

A similar argument can be made for our LRTs. While they are incompatible with the streetcar system, we can effectively build an overlayed standard gauge LRT network long into the future. It is all a much bigger picture than just the existing TTC.

The difference with the LRTs is that they aren't sharing any of the network with the streetcars, and there are no places where that could happen. And there are very few places where it could interface with the existing subway system. That's why I've never argued that building them in the way that they have was a mistake. That is the exact situation where building an independent system makes sense, although the fleet size (especially of Finch West) worries me.

None of that is the case with the Ontario Line though.

Dan