adys123 said:
I suppose the aesthetic argument is subjective.

However, given the reduced infrastructure requirements (does not require TPSS to be located as close together due to reduced power loss) in OCS systems and the improved safety aspect of it. There is not really a technical benefit to third rail, except where the system exists historically.
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nfitz said:
I really don't think the average person has any care about wires. The one thing I've never heard in a public meeting is concern about catenary visibility. It's always seems to be something raised by a handful of rail fans on a forum.

My concern is that third rail is going to be easier to maintain. We've already seen photos of the Ottawa LRT with wire down.
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Confederation Line was down for six days, with the catenary mangled and melted. Using the same voltage and current as OL is supposed to. Can't recall that happening with our subway.

I guess a "technical benefit" of third rail is that it's more robust, easier to maintain, and more capable of withstanding winter weather. Pretty logical if you think about it. A shielded rail tucked away vs suspended wires exposed to the elements.
 
GioBuild said:
Thank you. I thought I had read 2024, but 2026 makes sense.

The last time they resurfaced Pape Ave (a few years ago) it was an absolute mess and took way longer than it should have. I can only imagine what's going to happen when they start the Ontario. But the sooner they start, the better.
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I really hope they completely redesign Pape station while they're at it. It has the absolute worst pedestrian flow of any of the stations I frequent.
 
tayser said:
^ How do Toronto's trams/streetcars survive winters then? Do the wires freeze/snap when the temperature plummets?
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The last major ice storm was interesting. Intermittent movement, constant popping and zapping. With the replacement of poles with pantographs things are likely improved. And TTC is pretty good at preventative measures. But exposed wires are obviously a vulnerability.
 
44 North said:
The last major ice storm was interesting. Intermittent movement, constant popping and zapping. With the replacement of poles with pantographs things are likely improved. And TTC is pretty good at preventative measures. But exposed wires are obviously a vulnerability.
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The bigger problem were the cars blocking the tracks as had to get their all important cup of coffee.
 
44 North said:
I didn't write that. I said they'd be opposed to both.
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You said there would be more pushback if the line comes with catenary as opposed to not.

I posit that this doesn't matter. An elevated structure is large and intrusive. The difference between a third rail and catenary, once it's placed on such a structure, is trivial.
 
T3G said:
You said there would be more pushback if the line comes with catenary as opposed to not.

I posit that this doesn't matter. An elevated structure is large and intrusive. The difference between a third rail and catenary, once it's placed on such a structure, is trivial.
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I would've thought the same a few years ago. Until I saw the 20ft masts. It makes a difference. How could it not since it doubles the height of the structure. And keep in mind I'm one of the biggest advocated of elevated rail. If overhead is not needed - and they're most definitely not for the reasons listed - we shouldn't have them. My opinion.
 
Here are the catenary references from the December 2020 Preliminary Design Business Case.

NOTE: It'll be an overhead 1500 volt DC system, so the electrical transformers and rectifiers will presumably be in substations,
not on-board as noted in the articles posted by W.K. Lis above for ac systems, and the issues with added vehicle weight won't arise.
1500 volts DC is also a step up from the typical 750 volts DC.
The article posted by W.K. Lis also says that 1500 volts DC (vs 750 volts DC) allows wider spacing / fewer substations.

PJWUmyA.png


FjdGOJH.png


PS, the catenary masts do add height to the overall look of the guideway.
Here's Seattle's Link:

971b2f02f5f0c7fd9ee7a2104704e0.jpg

www.systraibt.com

systra SOUND TRANSIT CENTRAL LINK LIGHT RAIL

This 5 mile (8 km) stretch of light rail extends from Boeing Field, at the southern outskirts of the city of Seattle, to the Seattle-Tacoma - SYSTRA IBT - Bridge Engineering
www.systraibt.com www.systraibt.com
 
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44 North said:
The last major ice storm was interesting. Intermittent movement, constant popping and zapping. With the replacement of poles with pantographs things are likely improved. And TTC is pretty good at preventative measures. But exposed wires are obviously a vulnerability.
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That always has happened in ice storms. It's a great light show when it's a good storm.

I've been been caught in a couple on streetcars - but I've never see the wire come down.

And when wire does come down, it's normally fixed in hours - I'm not sure what's going on in Ottawa.
 
nfitz said:
That always has happened in ice storms. It's a great light show when it's a good storm.

I've been been caught in a couple on streetcars - but I've never see the wire come down.

And when wire does come down, it's normally fixed in hours - I'm not sure what's going on in Ottawa.
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Yes six days down seems extremely excessive even for an organization with teething issues. This summer I saw wires get snagged hard on King with insulators popping. Got fixed pretty quick with a truck there in minutes. I guess when on a rapid transit line 15ft above the tracks things are more difficult because it's working at heights where normal vehicles can't access. Compared with third rail easily accessible. Still a week!

officedweller said:
Here are the catenary references from the December 2020 Preliminary Design Business Case.

NOTE: It'll be an overhead 1500 volt DC system, so the electrical transformers and rectifiers will presumably be in substations,
not on-board as noted in the articles posted by W.K. Lis above for ac systems, and the issues with added vehicle weight won't arise.
1500 volts DC is also a step up from the typical 750 volts DC.
The article posted by W.K. Lis also says that 1500 volts DC (vs 750 volts DC) allows wider spacing / fewer substations.




PS, the catenary masts do add height to the overall look of the guideway.
Here's Seattle's Link:


www.systraibt.com

systra SOUND TRANSIT CENTRAL LINK LIGHT RAIL

This 5 mile (8 km) stretch of light rail extends from Boeing Field, at the southern outskirts of the city of Seattle, to the Seattle-Tacoma - SYSTRA IBT - Bridge Engineering
www.systraibt.com www.systraibt.com
Click to expand...

Was a bit surprised they didn't put more focus on the decision. When the project was first presented to the public the example images were of subways with third rail.

And we have a catenary guideway in Toronto now fyi.

1677423139267.png
 
Maybe they should keep Line 3 (SRT) running past its closing date, so they are able to get enough buses until after the 20 months needed for the 501 mess. Or until Line 5 opens up, freeing those buses along Eglinton Avenue, AND until Line 6 opens up, freeing those buses long Finch Avenue West. Whichever comes first.
 
Maybe the TTC should dig more into their bus supply. Today, only 70% of the bus fleet is in use, as compared to 80% in 2012. They would be able to reduce their bus fleet by 200 odd units and only find themselves in the same position they were in in 2012.

At any rate, it is not clear whether the whole 501 is going to be replaced. The news articles suggest so, but that would be astonishingly stupid and shortsighted. As for keeping Line 3 going indefinitely, it would be far, far kinder to pull the plug on it as planned and put it out of its misery.
 
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