There would be no connection to Bloor,...

You could still feasibly have a long connection to Broadview. The height difference would less than the deeper London tube stations, and half the horizontal difference would be covered by those escalators. Crow flies, the horizontal difference is still less than between the Spadina platforms.
 
Call me optimistic but the biggest obstacle to the DRL right now is the incomplete data (real cost, route, maintenance etc...).

Once the full study on the DRL is completed and goes back to city hall, I can totally see councillors ganging up on Tory and force the DRL past Smarttrack. At the end of the day and it's safe to assume that a majority of councillor would prefer the DRL over Smarttrack at a similar price.

The province isn't thrilled about it and the Feds just wants to spend on good infrastructure based on data. Trudeau said in his new year interview that it must be the provinces and cities picking the projects to be funded. So the Federal part of it is:"give us a project and we'll pay our share of it".

With the Province not really high on duplicating Go RER for $8 billion for smarttrack, while they had made the pledge for the DRL during the last provincial election, all that's needed now is the DRL data to come out. Let's not forget Metrolinx did the preliminary work stating the best route must go all the way to Sheppard via Don Mills.

I expect a majority of councillors along with the Province and media get behind it once the city report comes out supporting Metrolinx data. Don't forget public opinion with this!

Wouldn't be the first time council killed a project that the mayor championed...right?
 
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You could still feasibly have a long connection to Broadview. The height difference would less than the deeper London tube stations, and half the horizontal difference would be covered by those escalators. Crow flies, the horizontal difference is still less than between the Spadina platforms.

Or do "traditional" DRL alignment south of Lawrence, and use the RH corridor north of Lawrence. That way you actually hit the potential trip generators south of Eglinton, not to mention you'd have a direct connection with both Eglinton and Bloor-Danforth. It would cost more, but I think it would drive up ridership on the southern portion dramatically.
 
Call me optimistic but the biggest obstacle to the DRL right now is the incomplete data (real cost, route, maintenance etc...).

Once the full study on the DRL is completed and goes back to city hall, I can totally see councillors ganging up on Tory and force the DRL past Smarttrack. At the end of the day and it's safe to assume that a majority of councillor would prefer the DRL over Smarttrack at a similar price.

The province isn't thrilled about it and the Feds just wants to spend on good infrastructure based on data. Trudeau said in his new year interview that it must be the provinces and cities picking the projects to be funded. So the Federal part of it is:"give us a project and we'll pay our share of it".

With the Province not really high on duplicating Go RER for $8 billion for smarttrack, while they had made the pledge for the DRL during the last provincial election, all that's needed now, is the DRL data to come out. Expect a majority of councillors along with the Province and media get behind it. Don't forget public opinion with this!

Wouldn't be the first time council killed a project that the mayor championed...right?

Completely agree.
 
Wouldn't be the first time council killed a project that the mayor championed...right?

I still maintain that the two projects will be merged, rather than there being a 'to-the-death' cage match at City Hall where only one comes out alive.

If the Eglinton West Spur is canned, there's already a significant amount of funding there to divert SmartTrack into a Central Tunnel and away from Union (which is something Metrolinx would like anyway, since it opens up more capacity for RER). The remaining funding gap would be far from insurmountable.
 
Call me optimistic but the biggest obstacle to the DRL right now is the incomplete data (real cost, route, maintenance etc...).

Once the full study on the DRL is completed and goes back to city hall, I can totally see councillors ganging up on Tory and force the DRL past Smarttrack. At the end of the day and it's safe to assume that a majority of councillor would prefer the DRL over Smarttrack at a similar price.

The province isn't thrilled about it and the Feds just wants to spend on good infrastructure based on data. Trudeau said in his new year interview that it must be the provinces and cities picking the projects to be funded. So the Federal part of it is:"give us a project and we'll pay our share of it".

With the Province not really high on duplicating Go RER for $8 billion for smarttrack, while they had made the pledge for the DRL during the last provincial election, all that's needed now is the DRL data to come out. Let's not forget Metrolinx did the preliminary work stating the best route must go all the way to Sheppard via Don Mills.

I expect a majority of councillors along with the Province and media get behind it once the city report comes out supporting Metrolinx data. Don't forget public opinion with this!

Wouldn't be the first time council killed a project that the mayor championed...right?

I agree. I don't expect this to be an either-or situation. SmartTrack will fold in into ECLRT and GO RER, and the Relief Line will continue as its own thing.

People say Tory will want to push SmartTrack and cancel the DRL, but the risks vs. benefits for him weight enormously to the side of the risks. Consider that:

1. The SmartTrack plan is of questionable merit. The media and Council will without doubt hammer Tory on the plan.
2. Torontonians don't view SmartTrack as a priority. The Relief Line is the #1 priority by far, and SmartTrack is the 4th priority after ECLRT and SSE. Tory will have to convince Torontonians that its a more important project. Good luck doing that with the media and political opponents on your tail.
3. Tory hardly won the vote on the Gardiner East. Canceling the Relief Line could very well turn Council against him. That may very well kill Tory's ability to implement policy for the remainder of his term.
4. Come election time other candidates will criticize Tory for supporting his own fanciful plan over the Relief Line, and he could lose the election because of it.

Now consider what benefits Tory would see from cancelling the Relief Line. Maybe he could cite cost savings? But the province probably would have paid for the Relief Line, so that argument doesn't hold up well. That's really the only direct benefit I could see for Tory.
 
You could still feasibly have a long connection to Broadview. The height difference would less than the deeper London tube stations, and half the horizontal difference would be covered by those escalators. Crow flies, the horizontal difference is still less than between the Spadina platforms.

Possibly. And if the City decides to sell its massive and valuable TDSB property in this area (City adult learning centre), this type of connection could easily be worked into any future redevelopment. But hopefully we wouldn't need this disjointed connection if we use some of the ideas presented in the YRNS, and combine it with the City's Option A relief plan.

In the YRNS both the LRT and Surface Subway proposal include options to have the Don Branch deviate eastward, punch into the valley to pass under Broadview, then head back southwest toward the core.

Surface LRT Alignment Design and Modelling Assumptions
Eglinton/Leslie Station to Broadview Station
...
• The Don Subdivision route comprises a single rail track from the point where it diverges from the Belleville Subdivision tracks to the point where it joins the CN Bala Subdivision tracks north of Gerrard Street. However parts of this corridor are wide enough to accommodate two LRT tracks. The bridges at Bayview Avenue and True Davidson Drive are able to accommodate a double track LRT Route.
• Before the subdivision’s second Bayview Avenue crossing, the option utilizes structures to pass over Bayview Avenue and the Don Valley Parkway before tunneling under Broadview Avenue to connect to Broadview Station.

Broadview Station to Corktown Commons Station
• The route follows tunnels south of Broadview Station before exiting onto a structure to pass over the Don River and run along the existing rail corridor between Bayview Avenue and the Don River.
...
YRNS-LRT.jpg
Surface Subway Alignment Design and Modelling Assumptions
Eglinton/Leslie Station to Broadview Station
...

• Before the subdivision’s second Bayview Avenue crossing, the option utilizes structures to pass over Bayview Avenue and the Don Valley Parkway before tunneling under Broadview Avenue to connect to Broadview Station.
Broadview Station to St. Andrew Station
• The route follows tunnels south of Broadview Station before exiting onto a structure to pass over the Don River and run along a new rail corridor which will impact adjacent parks.
...
YRNS-Surface-Subway.jpg

Both of these are problematic (and unworkable IMO), considering that south of Broadview they run on the surface alongside the Don River. This doesn't work, and it needlessly bypasses +50k people in the WDL, Regent Park, and much of the east downtown shoulder. The LRT is also dumb because it's proposed to run in-median along Front when all evidence says it needs to be underground. This is why I'm fully supportive of the City/TTC relief line plans: we've clearly asserted that it can only be a subway, and must be fully grade-separated. Even though we're timidly only planning it as a Phase I, we're planning it right IMO.

However, if Metrolinx does decide to accept our relief line criteria and work alongside us, I think some aspects of YRNS could hypothetically be morphed into the City/TTC routing options. Particularly "Option A" south of Broadview. So rather than running alongside the Don River south of Broadview as the YRNS proposes, the elevated structure would continue across the valley (in the Riverdale Park area), enter the valley wall, then run south along River Street toward King/Queen.

Corridor A - small.jpg


I think crossing the Don Valley is a much bigger undertaking than many realize, that it will dictate the DRL's route downtown, and that both the City and Metrolinx will unanimously agree that a bridge is the best way to do it.
 

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I think crossing the Don Valley is a much bigger undertaking than many realize, that it will dictate the DRL's route downtown, and that both the City and Metrolinx will unanimously agree that a bridge is the best way to do it.

I don't know why it is perceived as being so hard. Why wouldn't any DRL utilize the underbelly of the Leaside Bridge? It seems to be primed for it.

Leaside_Bridge.JPG


After routing east through Thorncliffe Park, I think the challenge will eb crossing the West Don, I don't think the Overlea Bridge could handle a modification for trains.

thumbnail-300x200.jpg
 
Compare with the Prince Edward Viaduct, which is much more stronger.
19723549.jpg

Good point. My overarching line of thought though is that it is still an existing bridge that could potentially be utilized, which is much easier than trying to come up with a brand new way of getting from Broadview to the Don branch, or finding some other new way of crossing the Don Valley. From both a financial and environmental impact perspective.
 
Rather than messing with existing (and very old) bridges to design in a ROW, adjust all the structural stuff, and then have to deal with a lifespan dealing with the salt issues etc, I'd say a new dedicated bridge may be simpler and less risky on a life-span basis.

A new bridge would not be that intrusive, particularly if built adjacent to the existing Leaside Viaduct so there is no new visual crossing of the valley.

How much does a bridge that height and length cost, anyways?

- Paul
 
I don't know why it is perceived as being so hard. Why wouldn't any DRL utilize the underbelly of the Leaside Bridge? It seems to be primed for it.

I honestly don't think either of those bridges could be modified to carry a subway, and if they could, it still would probably be cheaper and more optimal for a new structure paralleling those existing road bridges.

But I was more specifically talking about the southernmost portion of the DRL and its crossing of the Lower Don - i.e for the phase between St Andrew and Danforth. Where it would cross, and if it will be deep underground (tunnel) or up/over ground (bridge) is a big question, and one that I think will dictate the DRL's alignment/routing through Old Toronto. All three of those maps I posted generally point to the area of Riverdale Park East/West as being a possible location for this crossing.

IMO a tunnel in the area of Queen is the best answer, because it can get the line farther across Old TO to Carlaw/Leslieville area and (potentially) allow for a triple or quad track tunnel to divert LSE and Stouffville GO RER trains across the city using the same tunnel. However, the depth and complexity of a tunnel in this area will be significant, and may very well be ruled out on account of this. And I can't imagine where a bridge could ever be located there. This is why I think we'll possibly see some kind of hybrid between the City/TTC "Option A", and YRNS' "Surface Subway" as a possible shortlist of a shortlist.
 
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But I was more specifically talking about the southernmost portion of the DRL and its crossing of the Lower Don - i.e for the phase between St Andrew and Danforth. Where it would cross, and if it will be deep underground (tunnel) or up/over ground (bridge) is a big question, and one that I think will dictate the DRL's alignment/routing through Old Toronto. All three of those maps I posted generally point to the area of Riverdale Park East/West as being a possible location for this crossing.

I'm caught between thinking that one could do something really funky and cool for the city scape with the right bridge - Vancouver doesn't hurt for having some high bridges on their system, although they have too much of it for Toronto's tastes - and bowing to common sense when I look at all the new construction that has pretty much walled off any at- or above- grade routing. Sinking it - at whatever cost, it will not be a cheap tunnel - may be the only option remaining.

It may depend on what the end alignment through the downtown is. If it crosses the Don up around Gerrard, but has to work its way south to Queen or Adelaide, there will be lots of deep footings to thread between. If it crosses down around Queen, then it is on a straight path to cross the downtown under whatever street proves to be the most desirable (I'm not ruling out Richmond or Adelaide, or King for that matter).

The one alignment down there that nobody cares about (because it is already dead ugly) is Adelaide-Eastern. I wonder if one could suspend it over that roadway, or tear up and move that roadway. The tunnel portal would be around Power St. Not simple, but perhaps slightly cheaper than a tunnel?

- Paul
 
How much does a bridge that height and length cost, anyways?

- Paul

Say a 500m long high level bridge, 10m wide costs $20,000 per m2 of deck area. That's about $100M. You can maybe double it for a signature type bridge.
 

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