[TheTigerMaster]

Cry.

I mean, I understand that building the OL above ground is bullshit, given that Metrolinx is happy to waste billions of our dollars on the completely unnecessary tunnelling of the very low ridership Eglinton West LRT, while penny pinching on the most important rapid transit expansion we've seen in 60 years.

But, nevertheless, cry more.

 

[warrens]

I mean, I understand that building the OL above ground is bullshit, given that Metrolinx is happy to waste billions of our dollars on the completely unnecessary tunnelling of the very low ridership Eglinton West LRT, while penny pinching on the most important rapid transit expansion we've seen in 60 years.

I've got a technical theory about this, that doesn't revolve around Metrolinx's "it's faster" argument..... or my personal opinion which is that it's Ford's old ward and Associate Transport Minister Kinga Surma's current riding, and they're giving it "special treatment" as is completely typical with Ontario politicians of all political stripes.

I'll preface this by saying that I know Eglinton Avenue very very well. I've had many professional commitments and spent personal time in literally every segment of the road -- from spending time at a friend's place in one of those soul-sucking townhouses by the 407 at the Oakville border, to having drinks at the Olde Stone Cottage Pub at Kingston Road. I've seen every bit of the Crosstown and Mississauga BRT construction projects (at least, the Eglinton portion) evolve over the years with my own eyes.

I think there's a valid case that can be made related to residential noise.

Consider the existing Crosstown route::

1. The overground segment from Kennedy to Leslie is almost 100% commercial or high-density residential. There are a small number of houses that back/overlook onto Eglinton around the Don Mills and Brentcliffe portals, and near Victoria Park Ave. A noise wall was built between the houses and the Brentcliffe portal before construction of the portal began in 2014 or whatever it was. They also just installed new noise walls between the site of Keelesdale Station's new bus terminal and some houses that are right beside it.
2. The overground segment west of Keele is also not near any residential areas, except for a few houses beside Mount Dennis. The thing is, those houses are also directly beside the main train line, which includes UPX trains rumbling by every 7.5 minutes. I used to have a storage unit along the tracks a few blocks away from here.... it is indeed very noisy, all the time, so I suspect people in this specific area aren't going to complain about transit noise.

And Eglinton West LRT's design diagrams (PDF):

1. The LRT would go back underground west of Mount Dennis, underneath the houses, avoiding putting the LRT route right outside people's front doors. The road here isn't wide enough for an LRT anyways; all the houses here have little to no front-yards.
2. The route continues outdoors & elevated through the Scarlett Woods golf course area. No residences.
3. The routes dives underground right around the point that the houses begin on the south side of Eglinton, west of Scarlett Road.
4. From this point westward, especially west of Royal York, it's pretty much exclusively residential.
5. West of Martin Grove, the houses thin out as it approaches the 427/401 interchange, but then there's a bunch more approaching Renforth. But at that point you do want to be underground again to facilitate a nice connection with the Mississauga BRT.

With all that in mind, I'll go so far as to say this: Putting Crosstown West overground would negatively impact many times more residences (and therefore people) than the Leslieville segment of the Ontario Line.

Do I personally think this is a justification for putting Crosstown West underground? Absolutely not, given the price. If you live right along Eglinton, you're already used to a ton of background noise from buses, cars, trucks, and airplanes.... and, like, boo-fuckin'-hoo, I've lived directly on three different streetcar routes in my life. It's a big city and sometimes that means big city noises.

But that's just my opinion. Other people are more sensitive to noise than me, and that is totally fair.

 

[afransen]

Are streetcars all that noisy compared to ubiquitous fart can exhausts you hear on roads? They're noisiest when turning, which isn't really a factor here.

 

[44 North]

I've got a technical theory about this, that doesn't revolve around Metrolinx's "it's faster" argument..... or my personal opinion which is that it's Ford's old ward and Associate Transport Minister Kinga Surma's current riding, and they're giving it "special treatment" as is completely typical with Ontario politicians of all political stripes.

I'll preface this by saying that I know Eglinton Avenue very very well. I've had many professional commitments and spent personal time in literally every segment of the road -- from spending time at a friend's place in one of those soul-sucking townhouses by the 407 at the Oakville border, to having drinks at the Olde Stone Cottage Pub at Kingston Road. I've seen every bit of the Crosstown and Mississauga BRT construction projects (at least, the Eglinton portion) evolve over the years with my own eyes.

I think there's a valid case that can be made related to residential noise.

Consider the existing Crosstown route::

1. The overground segment from Kennedy to Leslie is almost 100% commercial or high-density residential. There are a small number of houses that back/overlook onto Eglinton around the Don Mills and Brentcliffe portals, and near Victoria Park Ave. A noise wall was built between the houses and the Brentcliffe portal before construction of the portal began in 2014 or whatever it was. They also just installed new noise walls between the site of Keelesdale Station's new bus terminal and some houses that are right beside it.
2. The overground segment west of Keele is also not near any residential areas, except for a few houses beside Mount Dennis. The thing is, those houses are also directly beside the main train line, which includes UPX trains rumbling by every 7.5 minutes. I used to have a storage unit along the tracks a few blocks away from here.... it is indeed very noisy, all the time, so I suspect people in this specific area aren't going to complain about transit noise.

And Eglinton West LRT's design diagrams (PDF):

1. The LRT would go back underground west of Mount Dennis, underneath the houses, avoiding putting the LRT route right outside people's front doors. The road here isn't wide enough for an LRT anyways; all the houses here have little to no front-yards.
2. The route continues outdoors & elevated through the Scarlett Woods golf course area. No residences.
3. The routes dives underground right around the point that the houses begin on the south side of Eglinton, west of Scarlett Road.
4. From this point westward, especially west of Royal York, it's pretty much exclusively residential.
5. West of Martin Grove, the houses thin out as it approaches the 427/401 interchange, but then there's a bunch more approaching Renforth. But at that point you do want to be underground again to facilitate a nice connection with the Mississauga BRT.

With all that in mind, I'll go so far as to say this: Putting Crosstown West overground would negatively impact many times more residences (and therefore people) than the Leslieville segment of the Ontario Line.

Do I personally think this is a justification for putting Crosstown West underground? Absolutely not, given the price. If you live right along Eglinton, you're already used to a ton of background noise from buses, cars, trucks, and airplanes.... and, like, boo-fuckin'-hoo, I've lived directly on three different streetcar routes in my life. It's a big city and sometimes that means big city noises.

But that's just my opinion. Other people are more sensitive to noise than me, and that is totally fair.

Whether it's your opinon or not Eglinton West, from Scarlett to Bemersyde, it's like on average 60m from the centre of the road to people's homes. Maybe a bit less since some are closer. Say 55m. Either way that kind of distance makes Eglinton West stand virtually alone in the city for single family homes being distant from an arterial. Obviously there are other corridors lined with commercial and parking, which would be good candidates for elevated too. But regardless, if the Prov deems elevated on Eglinton West to have too many 'negative impacts', then that sounds like game over for elevated. Yet it's not. Overlea it's like 15m from centre of road to people's homes.

Pretty clear the Prov is being political on Eg West.

 

[99Messier]

Whether it's your opinon or not Eglinton West, from Scarlett to Bemersyde, it's like on average 60m from the centre of the road to people's homes. Maybe a bit less since some are closer. Say 55m. Either way that kind of distance makes Eglinton West stand virtually alone in the city for single family homes being distant from an arterial. Obviously there are other corridors lined with commercial and parking, which would be good candidates for elevated too. But regardless, if the Prov deems elevated on Eglinton West to have too many 'negative impacts', then that sounds like game over for elevated. Yet it's not. Overlea it's like 15m from centre of road to people's homes.

Pretty clear the Prov is being political on Eg West.

I suspect it's more public sector workers knowing this project is important to Ford and they want to create a giant project for themselves. They have a blank check so why not use it?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I've got a technical theory about this, that doesn't revolve around Metrolinx's "it's faster" argument..... or my personal opinion which is that it's Ford's old ward and Associate Transport Minister Kinga Surma's current riding, and they're giving it "special treatment" as is completely typical with Ontario politicians of all political stripes.

I'll preface this by saying that I know Eglinton Avenue very very well. I've had many professional commitments and spent personal time in literally every segment of the road -- from spending time at a friend's place in one of those soul-sucking townhouses by the 407 at the Oakville border, to having drinks at the Olde Stone Cottage Pub at Kingston Road. I've seen every bit of the Crosstown and Mississauga BRT construction projects (at least, the Eglinton portion) evolve over the years with my own eyes.

I think there's a valid case that can be made related to residential noise.

Consider the existing Crosstown route::

1. The overground segment from Kennedy to Leslie is almost 100% commercial or high-density residential. There are a small number of houses that back/overlook onto Eglinton around the Don Mills and Brentcliffe portals, and near Victoria Park Ave. A noise wall was built between the houses and the Brentcliffe portal before construction of the portal began in 2014 or whatever it was. They also just installed new noise walls between the site of Keelesdale Station's new bus terminal and some houses that are right beside it.
2. The overground segment west of Keele is also not near any residential areas, except for a few houses beside Mount Dennis. The thing is, those houses are also directly beside the main train line, which includes UPX trains rumbling by every 7.5 minutes. I used to have a storage unit along the tracks a few blocks away from here.... it is indeed very noisy, all the time, so I suspect people in this specific area aren't going to complain about transit noise.

And Eglinton West LRT's design diagrams (PDF):

1. The LRT would go back underground west of Mount Dennis, underneath the houses, avoiding putting the LRT route right outside people's front doors. The road here isn't wide enough for an LRT anyways; all the houses here have little to no front-yards.
2. The route continues outdoors & elevated through the Scarlett Woods golf course area. No residences.
3. The routes dives underground right around the point that the houses begin on the south side of Eglinton, west of Scarlett Road.
4. From this point westward, especially west of Royal York, it's pretty much exclusively residential.
5. West of Martin Grove, the houses thin out as it approaches the 427/401 interchange, but then there's a bunch more approaching Renforth. But at that point you do want to be underground again to facilitate a nice connection with the Mississauga BRT.

With all that in mind, I'll go so far as to say this: Putting Crosstown West overground would negatively impact many times more residences (and therefore people) than the Leslieville segment of the Ontario Line.

Do I personally think this is a justification for putting Crosstown West underground? Absolutely not, given the price. If you live right along Eglinton, you're already used to a ton of background noise from buses, cars, trucks, and airplanes.... and, like, boo-fuckin'-hoo, I've lived directly on three different streetcar routes in my life. It's a big city and sometimes that means big city noises.

But that's just my opinion. Other people are more sensitive to noise than me, and that is totally fair.

Are streetcars all that noisy compared to ubiquitous fart can exhausts you hear on roads? They're noisiest when turning, which isn't really a factor here.

Are the trams any noisier than the busses they're replacing? I don't think so. Especially given that the EWLRT is a more or less perfectly straight route (so no annoying wheel squeal).

 

[warrens]

Whether it's your opinon or not Eglinton West, from Scarlett to Bemersyde, it's like on average 60m from the centre of the road to people's homes. Maybe a bit less since some are closer. Say 55m.

Incorrect. You aren't even close.

The distance from the fronts of these residential units on either side of Lloyd Manor, to the edge of Eglinton is about 12 meters:

Down the street is this segment, where the distance from the houses on one side to the houses on the other side is about 60m. Obviously a lot less than that to the edge of the road:

And in this segment by the pedestrian bridge, it's in the 25-35 range from the back of the house (the house, not the property) to the edge of the street:

You can explore this further for yourself by right-clicking on any point in Google Maps, choosing "Measure distance", right-clicking somewhere and and clicking "Distance to here".

Question: So.... where in the world did you get 60m from? Did you make it up? Are you guessing? Are you lying? Are you confusing feet and meters? Please don't do any of those things, man. It rots the brain. Having opinions is great, but at the very least, root them in facts.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I don’t get the point of this debate. How many dozens of streets, including residential streets, in Toronto have railways running down them?? We’re talking about trams here, not freight trains or even the Toronto subway rolling stock. These trams aren’t even as noisy as the buses or trucks that roll down hundreds of streets in this city. If noise was a concern, put up sound barriers on the elevated structures and the things would be effectively silent. This isn’t a real issue.

 

[Coolstar]

I don’t get the point of this debate. How many dozens of streets, including residential streets, in Toronto have railways running down them?? We’re talking about trams here, not freight trains or even the Toronto subway rolling stock. These trams aren’t even as noisy as the buses or trucks that roll down hundreds of streets in this city. If noise was a concern, put up sound barriers on the elevated structures and the things would be effectively silent. This isn’t a real issue.

We're even off-topic here. Let's move this conversation to the EWLRT thread.

 

[44 North]

Incorrect. You aren't even close.

The distance from the fronts of these residential units on either side of Lloyd Manor, to the edge of Eglinton is about 12 meters:




Down the street is this segment, where the distance from the houses on one side to the houses on the other side is about 60m. Obviously a lot less than that to the edge of the road:




And in this segment by the pedestrian bridge, it's in the 25-35 range from the back of the house (the house, not the property) to the edge of the street:



You can explore this further for yourself by right-clicking on any point in Google Maps, choosing "Measure distance", right-clicking somewhere and and clicking "Distance to here".

Question: So.... where in the world did you get 60m from? Did you make it up? Are you guessing? Are you lying? Are you confusing feet and meters? Please don't do any of those things, man. It rots the brain. Having opinions is great, but at the very least, root them in facts.

See where I wrote Scarlett to Bemersyde? Or centre of the road to house? Or the word "average"? Want to see a map to show how wrong you are, which interestingly contradicts your spiel on the previous page about how well you know Eglinton? And that "+60m" works out to well over 60m. Again, there are not too many corridors in the city like this.

Question: So.... where in the world did you get 60m from? Did you make it up? Are you guessing? Are you lying? Are you confusing feet and meters? Please don't do any of those things, man. It rots the brain. Having opinions is great, but at the very least, root them in facts.

Riiiiighht

 

[Adjei]

Too many people are still far too rosy-eyed about the real Relief Line South plans. RLS only really attempted to solve one major problem: congestion at Bloor/Yonge. That's it. Precisely zero of the other subway stations being built along the route were solving any significant capacity problem in a significant way. I'm sure some GO commuters would've transferred at Gerrard, too, providing some relief at Union. But the Gerrad station design was absolutely horrible, with five long escalators required to get from the Lakeshore East GO track level to the Relief Line track level. Five escalators. FIVE. ESCALATORS. Plus, if GO and TTC fares are still separate like it is today, then people who'd normally walk from Union to Adelaide/Queen businesses through the PATH would probably not be interested in paying the additional TTC fare.

Aside from that, the RLS stops at Queen/Carlaw, Broadview and King/Sumach were all pretty pointless. Heck, the original plan was to put a stop at Queen & Pape! No transit planner would ever look at a map of Toronto, point to that intersection, and say, "Yes! That's the spot!"

If we're going to spend hundreds of millions of $$$ on subway stations instead of, oh, I don't know, affordable housing or something, could we at least put them where they'll do the most good for the most people? Surely that's reasonable, yeah? Corktown is almost unquestionably a better spot than King/Sumach. There is a ton of residential + office density there already, with a lot more to come. Plus it serves the Distillery district, all the co-op housing south of the Esplanade that most people forget is there, and it's also within reasonable walking distance of the vast swaths of new development going up south of the Gardiner & west of Cherry.

East Harbour is going to prove to be a lot better than Queen/Broadview in the long run, too. The plan is to build a large new district south of Eastern & east of the DVP, with a lot more traffic than Queen/Broadview will ever see on its own.

The RLS Yonge & University stations were both also designed to maximize connectivity with the Sheraton Hotel and City Hall, at the expense of good-quality connections to Line 1. The new design puts the OL platforms directly underneath the Line 1 platforms, which will be more efficient for more people.

.....

And that's before we get to all the other "relief" benefits of having station stops at Exhibition GO (which provides more relief at Union), King/Bathurst (which gets people off the sardine-can 504 streetcars), and an Eglinton Crosstown connection (which provides relief on both Line 1 and Line 2).

You have to remember that so many here and other places have spent years following the plans for the Relief Line and have so much personal capital invested in it. This thread has been opened since 2008 and people have been dreaming up plans and locations for the stations for years even before this thread opened. The plans for the Relief Line presented by the Toronto fits in with their plans with it being an all underground plan which we love so much in this city. Anything which deviates from this plan presented is seen as an attack on their preferred plan. Elevated transit for example is done all over the world and doesn't ruin the urban fabric of the city. Amsterdam which looks better than Toronto has elevated transit all over the place and no one bats an eye. To them this was the perfect plan with nothing to be criticize about it. They also see that this new subway line is the last one to be built in Toronto so it has to be perfect with capacity which lasts forever. They can't get it that we should build other subway lines like in other cities around the world and this should not be the last line that we build. If the line will be full on day one like some here want us to believe which is just laughable, then start planning for another line which other cities do? Why do you think other cities have so many subway lines and stations? They don't just build one line and relax for a generation. They continuously build which is a concept that I hope gets ingrained into this city.

 

[slapped_chicken]

They also see that this new subway line is the last one to be built in Toronto so it has to be perfect with capacity which lasts forever. They can't get it that we should build other subway lines like in other cities around the world and this should not be the last line that we build. If the line will be full on day one like some here want us to believe which is just laughable, then start planning for another line which other cities do? Why do you think other cities have so many subway lines and stations? They don't just build one line and relax for a generation. They continuously build which is a concept that I hope gets ingrained into this city.

Honestly I keep flipping back and forth on whether this line will be overcapacity or not within a few decades but you're right. What I am hoping for is that they at least provide provisions to expand the capacity when the line ultimately becomes sardine'd. I mean, platform extensions for longer trains (that's an easy one), I can't think of anything else besides fixing certain stations *cough* science centre *cough* for better capacity. After all, just because we can build another line, doesn't mean we shouldn't try our best to optimize our lines under development.

Many people are pressed that they aren't getting the full rockets on this line. I think OL is good, and there are ways to push its capacity even further. And, tbh, this is a pretty high capacity light metro, it's not exactly gonna be the SRT or SkyTrain. Could it be more like Sydney Metro, if I could take a guess? I don't know if that's a good comparison, anyways Idk much about trains so I'd like to know of your guesses as to what would be a similar system existing today. Sydney's metro line is being designed with the potential to upgrade capacity to 46k ppdhd by means of extending platforms and higher frequencies.

 

[officedweller]

WRT train profiles, at least they're unlikely to be like these:

Coronavirus: Tube numbers to be 'severely restricted'

A leaked report warns only tens of thousands can use the Tube to adhere to social distance rules.

www.bbc.com

 

[Tuck]

You have to remember that so many here and other places have spent years following the plans for the Relief Line and have so much personal capital invested in it. This thread has been opened since 2008 and people have been dreaming up plans and locations for the stations for years even before this thread opened. The plans for the Relief Line presented by the Toronto fits in with their plans with it being an all underground plan which we love so much in this city. Anything which deviates from this plan presented is seen as an attack on their preferred plan. Elevated transit for example is done all over the world and doesn't ruin the urban fabric of the city. Amsterdam which looks better than Toronto has elevated transit all over the place and no one bats an eye. To them this was the perfect plan with nothing to be criticize about it. They also see that this new subway line is the last one to be built in Toronto so it has to be perfect with capacity which lasts forever. They can't get it that we should build other subway lines like in other cities around the world and this should not be the last line that we build. If the line will be full on day one like some here want us to believe which is just laughable, then start planning for another line which other cities do? Why do you think other cities have so many subway lines and stations? They don't just build one line and relax for a generation. They continuously build which is a concept that I hope gets ingrained into this city.

People like what they know. I know I personally became a fan of the world of transportation planning because of riding to work on the Toronto subway, and I'm sure many others here did too. Its hard, when you've thought for so many years "We should build more of this!" to accept a plan that is a little bit different. Its also hard to know that if we had built this stuff when we were supposed to, we probably wouldn't be having to make compromises on it now (same with Eglinton, Sheppard). But that says more about the quality of the system we have than the quality of the Ontario Line.

I for one love the idea of light metro, but it does surprise me that the relief line is the one where they're bringing it back to Toronto. It probably would have been perfect for Sheppard, Eglinton, the rehabiliation of line 3 (which already is light metro). Even now, all three projects are going to go ahead as nearly fully tunnelled works (Sheppard and Scarborough with the covetted Toronto Rockets, no less!), while they're cutting corners on the project thats been critical for years, which goes through the densest part of the city. Its an odd choice. Yet, stepping back, that probably says more about the decision making process behind those projects than it does for the Ontario Line.

You're right, that the Ontario Line should not be seen as the end all of transit in the City, but I think everyone here has seen the story play out in real time, and that has rightfully made them (us) jaded. Who knows when the next rapid transit line will be built in Toronto. Very easily, more decades could go by with little investment, given a single change in government. The same things that have happened to Lines 1 and 2 could very easily happen again given lack of proper investment. Hell, look at Vancouver for a recent example. Building new transit is not as easy as you make it out to be. But maybe that says more about the politics of Ontario than it does about the Ontario Line.

In all honesty, I don't know what I think. On one hand, the Ontario Line is like a monkey's paw. We are getting the line, kind of, but they are clearly cutting corners while splurging on less important works. And I must admit, I'm a little sad that Toronto's transit map will look like the hodgepodge it is because of all the politically meddling over the years. Subway, light rail, light metro, yeesh. We could have had toronto rocket subway trains going to every corner of this city. Now we won't. But thats me being sentimental, which exactly as you say, doesn't make for good transportation planning.

The Ontario line has some major benefits, most important of which is that it will be closer to the surface than the relief line, with much easier connections to the GO Train network. I'm not sold on the weird alignment in the east, and I'm definitely not sold on ending at Ehxibition (given its somewhat remoteness) rather than continuing along King (with a potential liberty village GO stop, maybe?), but its a decent plan, and it will offer benefits sooner than the relief line would have.

And hopefully in the end, it will be the relief line, now Ontario line, that teaches Toronto its most valuable lesson: grade separated transit doesn't need to be 30m underground.

 

[mdu]

I'm definitely not sold on ending at Ehxibition (given its somewhat remoteness) rather than continuing along King (with a potential liberty village GO stop, maybe?), but its a decent plan, and it will offer benefits sooner than the relief line would have.

I think most of us agree that the next metro projects in Toronto if the current ones ever get built (Yonge North, SSE, EWLRT, OL) will probably be Sheppard to STC, OL to Sheppard, and some sort of northwest expansion of OL.