H4F33Z
Active Member
Royal Orchard was never seriously put on the table. Maybe in the far-future but Cummer makes a lot more sense being built now.
- Thread starter JasonParis
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ARG1
Senior Member
The purpose of this extension is to reduce the amount of bus service on Yonge Street, which includes Viva Blue, the 99, and a few other miscellaneous GO busses. While an express extension would be okay, there are definitely some stations (namely Clark) that are super helpful to the region's overall transit masterplan.
Side note, Richmond Hill Centre is going to grow into a massive urban hub by 2030, with most of the parking spaces there planning to be redeveloped, and even Langstaff-Longbridge, the station that was purely meant for park and rides in the old "Option 1" has no replacement in "Option 3". Also, "Most of the ridership would be fed in from buses or driven to the parking lot" literally applies to basically every TTC Subway Station. The reason why despite its size the TTC has one of the highest ridership of any subway system on the continent, beating out DC and SanFran is because of our frequent bus network and how many people use it to get to the Subway, very little of it comes from density or development. Want proof? Look at Kennedy. One of the busiest stations on the network, very little development around the station, most of the traffic comes from transfer to the platitude of busses and GO.
First, don't forget that York Region is by all means a suburb of Toronto. While legally it is its own municipality separate from Toronto, in practice its basically a Toronto dorm, and as such most of the demand is to get to Toronto. As such, yes it is a convenience for York Region to get to Toronto because that's exactly what York Region is and what it exists for.
Second, if someone wants to make a trip like that, in the worst case scenario that Fare Integration isn't implemented by the time this extension opens, the 99 is always going to be an option, which is planned to have 15 minute headways when the extension opens. While the subway would be faster, it won't be that much faster, maybe a 5 minute travel time difference. Furthermore, if someone wanted to make a trip like that, in the long term they wouldn't use Viva Blue. While unfortunately Concord GO is still in its early days of planning and is unlikely to be built, Viva Orange will eventually get a branch that terminates at Clark Station, which will all the user to take the bus directly the GO station and take a GO train up to Newmarket which should be WAY faster.
Finally, the only thing Toronto taxpayers are paying for through their city taxes is the operations of the trains into York Region, not even the maintenance. The capital costs of the section within York Region is primarily being paid for by the Feds, followed by the province and finally York Region. Part of the reason why TYSSE has such lavish stations is because YR offered to pay extra for them. The reason why this subway is pushed so hard by York Region is because this setup is perfectly acceptable for the people living in York Region, and there's nothing here "to change" (well Fare Integration would be really nice, but its not an absolute necessity in this case).
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Kitsune
Senior Member
www.metrolinxengage.com/sites/default/files/ol-downtown_oct_voh.pdf Ontario line downtown presentation is up .. and it contains this mock up of Queen Station:
That is seemingly a lot of empty space being left at the end of the platforms ... have they mentioned if they are protecting space for platform extensions ? Unfortunately ... they cut off the explanations for the bottom area
That is seemingly a lot of empty space being left at the end of the platforms ... have they mentioned if they are protecting space for platform extensions ? Unfortunately ... they cut off the explanations for the bottom area
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
www.metrolinxengage.com/sites/default/files/ol-downtown_oct_voh.pdf Ontario line downtown presentation is up .. and it contains this mock up of Queen Station:
View attachment 354270
That is seemingly a lot of empty space being left at the end of the platforms ... have they mentioned if they are protecting space for platform extensions ? Unfortunately ... they cut off the explanations for the bottom area
Some of that empty space is doubtlessly for ventilation fans (and you can see the dashed outline of two placed vertically at either end of the shaft), but yeah it be nice if some of it is for platform expansion.
AoD
Northern Light
Superstar
Did we know this previously?:
Also, is this referring the Pusateri's? Or to a level lower down that is not public?
Also, is this referring the Pusateri's? Or to a level lower down that is not public?
Northern Light
Superstar
Wasn't the new Recreation Centre on the west side of the park previously?
Hmm, between the CRC and Mx this park will lose up to 1/2 its tree canopy.
New CRC site:
New O/L entrance and open cut:
Hmm, between the CRC and Mx this park will lose up to 1/2 its tree canopy.
New CRC site:
New O/L entrance and open cut:
Haydenpoon
Active Member
Metrolinx seems to forget the existence of the Osgoode station and did not have a presentation about Osgoode during this round of engagement.
reteequa
Active Member
It seems like there are 6 trees listed to be used in future park redesign. I assume that means they will be removed and replanted. Its in the landscape plan a few slides below.
Haydenpoon
Active Member
Their "concept" design requires people to walk from the northbound platform around 60m east, then turn around in order to go down the escalator (same with the other side). A better way will be to put the set of escalators in between the Yonge platform and elevators, and also flip the orientation of the escalators.www.metrolinxengage.com/sites/default/files/ol-downtown_oct_voh.pdf Ontario line downtown presentation is up .. and it contains this mock up of Queen Station:
View attachment 354270
That is seemingly a lot of empty space being left at the end of the platforms ... have they mentioned if they are protecting space for platform extensions ? Unfortunately ... they cut off the explanations for the bottom area
44 North
Senior Member
www.metrolinxengage.com/sites/default/files/ol-downtown_oct_voh.pdf Ontario line downtown presentation is up .. and it contains this mock up of Queen Station:
That is seemingly a lot of empty space being left at the end of the platforms ... have they mentioned if they are protecting space for platform extensions ? Unfortunately ... they cut off the explanations for the bottom area
Wow that's a big cavern. Night and day vs existing Queen.
Curious if there was a sub basement. Love the Bay but hopefully a chance to refresh that cramped level.
CharmAlarm
Active Member
Something to think about. Of course, on the flip side, plans should continue because by the time the OL and other extensions are completed in 10+ years things might indeed be back to some level of normal and traffic congestion will be an even bigger issue.
www.tvo.org
The case for delaying Toronto’s subway plans | TVO.org
OPINION: The justification for the Ontario line and other transit plans was a growing army of workers commuting to downtown offices every day. What if they don’t come back after COVID-19?
innsertnamehere
Superstar
covid and increased work from home may eventually reduce some peak loads on transit beyond pre-pandemic growth levels, but the stuff will be needed still.
Instead of the OL arriving 10 years late, perhaps it will arrive dead on time.
Instead of the OL arriving 10 years late, perhaps it will arrive dead on time.
ARG1
Senior Member
In short, no that Article isn't remotely correct about anything. A lot of workplaces haven't brought back in office work, but that is no indication of the future. Speaking for where I work, people are desperately itching to go back to in person as work from home leads to so many issues both technical and related to work culture (this is an office job), and once it is over we shouldn't expect things to be permanently scarred in terms of commuting patterns, even for workplaces that can technically operate from a work from home environment. Best case scenario, we see a decrease of 5-10%, which while it could give a capacity buffer to the system, will be nowhere near enough to offset our population growth and overall demand for the next 10-30 years.Something to think about. Of course, on the flip side, plans should continue because by the time the OL and other extensions are completed in 10+ years things might indeed be back to some level of normal and traffic congestion will be an even bigger issue.
The case for delaying Toronto’s subway plans | TVO.org
OPINION: The justification for the Ontario line and other transit plans was a growing army of workers commuting to downtown offices every day. What if they don’t come back after COVID-19?
nfitz
Superstar
Ten years late? With the original plan to have something in place by 1980, it's at best 50 years late.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Re:
https://www.tvo.org/article/the-case-for-delaying-torontos-subway-plans
That article is very easy to argue against, but they have no comments section
First of all, the Covid situation is temporary. It might last another year or two, but not 10+ years that will pass before any of the new subways will start running.
Secondly and just for the argument sake, what if the 2035 transit ridership drops by 30% compared to where it would be if Covid never happened? That would offset part of the expected growth, but the new subways would be far from empty. And certainly they wouldn't look like generational mistakes.
Third, the fiscal environment is extremely favorable for the public infrastructure investments right now. The interest rates are low, the acceptance of debt-based financing is higher than ever, and the inflation is moderate. That will not last for very long. If we don't invest in transit now, the governments will find a way to debt-finance some other projects that will bring no returns whatsoever. With transit built, at least we will have something for long-term use.
And a minor point, but one that casts doubts on the depth of the author's research: while the 3 subway projects are mentioned in the article, one LRT subway project (Eglinton West) is forgotten. Even though the latter is in the same league on per-km cost, and will have the lowest ridership of the four. But since Eglinton West isn't technically a subway, it easily escaped the author's attention.
https://www.tvo.org/article/the-case-for-delaying-torontos-subway-plans
That article is very easy to argue against, but they have no comments section
First of all, the Covid situation is temporary. It might last another year or two, but not 10+ years that will pass before any of the new subways will start running.
Secondly and just for the argument sake, what if the 2035 transit ridership drops by 30% compared to where it would be if Covid never happened? That would offset part of the expected growth, but the new subways would be far from empty. And certainly they wouldn't look like generational mistakes.
Third, the fiscal environment is extremely favorable for the public infrastructure investments right now. The interest rates are low, the acceptance of debt-based financing is higher than ever, and the inflation is moderate. That will not last for very long. If we don't invest in transit now, the governments will find a way to debt-finance some other projects that will bring no returns whatsoever. With transit built, at least we will have something for long-term use.
And a minor point, but one that casts doubts on the depth of the author's research: while the 3 subway projects are mentioned in the article, one LRT subway project (Eglinton West) is forgotten. Even though the latter is in the same league on per-km cost, and will have the lowest ridership of the four. But since Eglinton West isn't technically a subway, it easily escaped the author's attention.