urbanexplorer

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I would argue king / portland is the heart of the entertainment district right now rather than king / Bathurst though
I would agree. Saying that removing the banknote, EFS and regulars from that intersection is going to spell the end of king west hyperbolic at best. The area is absolutely packed every weeknight and weekend and those three clubs will not make much of a dent IMO. Not to mention the eventual additional influx of people that will come with a new subway stop.
 

Amare

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I would agree. Saying that removing the banknote, EFS and regulars from that intersection is going to spell the end of king west hyperbolic at best. The area is absolutely packed every weeknight and weekend and those three clubs will not make much of a dent IMO. Not to mention the eventual additional influx of people that will come with a new subway stop.
You do realize that major infrastructure construction usually causes major disruptions for years right? And once that's complete (or near complete), there's usually a boom in development that follows due to substantially increased property values.

So in other words, if the construction of the King-Bathurst station doesnt kill off the entertainment scene around the area, the increased development almost immediately after most likely will. Heck, even without the construction of this station there are developments in the pipeline that are slated to wipe out some more bars in the area. There's really only a handful of entertainment venues along King between Bathurst and Spadina, and you'd be surprised at how many people each venue brings in independently.
 

urbanexplorer

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You do realize that major infrastructure construction usually causes major disruptions for years right? And once that's complete (or near complete), there's usually a boom in development that follows due to substantially increased property values.

So in other words, if the construction of the King-Bathurst station doesnt kill off the entertainment scene around the area, the increased development almost immediately after most likely will. Heck, even without the construction of this station there are developments in the pipeline that are slated to wipe out some more bars in the area. There's really only a handful of entertainment venues along King between Bathurst and Spadina, and you'd be surprised at how many people each venue brings in independently.
Disregarding your rhetorical (and somewhat condescending) question the rest of your comment is really, pure conjecture. Aside from the several dozen insanely popular places around the King & Portland spine (think Ruby Soho, Dasha, Lov, Lapinou, Oretta, the Hartly, Ascari, Vela, Gusto 101, Toybox, Sara, Little Sister, Petty Cash, WVRST, Buca, Parlour, Locals only, Laissex Faire, Shook, Chica, Casa Madera, 1 hotel + Kitchen to name a few) there are literally two massive entertainment developments rounding completion in the area - The Well and Waterworks food hall. They are not going anywhere and are going to draw even more people to the area.

I would hazard to say that this is probably the most popular entertainment area in Toronto by volume of visitors, by maybe a slight margin over Ossington. It has weathered the current construction that has taken down half of king st (King Toronto) exceedingly well and again, I don't think extended disruption to the corner of king/bathurst will spell the total destruction of it, by a wide margin.
 

karledice

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Disregarding your rhetorical (and somewhat condescending) question the rest of your comment is really, pure conjecture. Aside from the several dozen insanely popular places around the King & Portland spine (think Ruby Soho, Dasha, Lov, Lapinou, Oretta, the Hartly, Ascari, Vela, Gusto 101, Toybox, Sara, Little Sister, Petty Cash, WVRST, Buca, Parlour, Locals only, Laissex Faire, Shook, Chica, Casa Madera, 1 hotel + Kitchen to name a few) there are literally two massive entertainment developments rounding completion in the area - The Well and Waterworks food hall. They are not going anywhere and are going to draw even more people to the area.

I would hazard to say that this is probably the most popular entertainment area in Toronto by volume of visitors, by maybe a slight margin over Ossington. It has weathered the current construction that has taken down half of king st (King Toronto) exceedingly well and again, I don't think extended disruption to the corner of king/bathurst will spell the total destruction of it, by a wide margin.
Kudos for you knowing all the entertainment spots there!
 

Amare

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Disregarding your rhetorical (and somewhat condescending) question the rest of your comment is really, pure conjecture. Aside from the several dozen insanely popular places around the King & Portland spine (think Ruby Soho, Dasha, Lov, Lapinou, Oretta, the Hartly, Ascari, Vela, Gusto 101, Toybox, Sara, Little Sister, Petty Cash, WVRST, Buca, Parlour, Locals only, Laissex Faire, Shook, Chica, Casa Madera, 1 hotel + Kitchen to name a few) there are literally two massive entertainment developments rounding completion in the area - The Well and Waterworks food hall. They are not going anywhere and are going to draw even more people to the area.

I would hazard to say that this is probably the most popular entertainment area in Toronto by volume of visitors, by maybe a slight margin over Ossington. It has weathered the current construction that has taken down half of king st (King Toronto) exceedingly well and again, I don't think extended disruption to the corner of king/bathurst will spell the total destruction of it, by a wide margin.
We both have different takes/point of view of what will happen to the future of this area, and I wont try and change your opinion as everyone thinks differently. I'm aware of a lot of the restaurants/bars you've listed in your post and I agree that The Well and Waterworks will be huge draws for the area, but in my opinion those 2 massive developments will not help offset the substantial losses we'll see take place in the coming years along King West. Let's not forget that King Toronto itself took down a couple establishments as well, and I dont think the retail mix going in that development will be replacing what was lost.

Additionally, a lot of the establishments you listed above are also located on sites that are ripe for redevelopment and most times the rents on the replacement retail are just so outrageous that these establishments cant afford locating in the area anymore. This is exactly why the Ossington strip has become so popular over the years, because a lot of establishments were pushed out of the Entertainment District and reincanated into various forms in different parts of the city.

The new TOC developments that will occur at King and Bathust most likely wont be accommodating new entertainment space, and if they do it would be your generic spots owned by some large corporate entity (ie: in other words likely to be soul suckingly dry).
 
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daptive

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there are literally two massive entertainment developments rounding completion in the area - The Well and Waterworks food hall.
I agree that The Well and Waterworks will be huge draws for the area

I don’t disagree that those two developments will bring in crowds, but this is not the same 2AM crowd as what currently exists on King and around the city. And that’s the type of nightlife that’s being squeezed out. From what we’ve seen from The Well retail leases, it’ll be about as dead as the financial district at night.
 

daptive

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Personally glad to see these pushed out...
Totally understand everyone has their preferences, I’m also not saying the crowd can’t be troublesome or destructive. I feel like the rowdiness is more a byproduct of crowded establishments, poor transportation, and early last calls—but this is a different conversation from “should they exist”.

But my original point still stands, there are tonnes of young adults (who spend lots of money in this city) who are seeing their reasons from staying here dwindling every day.

Wanting something pushed away because you personally don’t like it follows the same thinking as NIMBYs and “gentrifiers”
 

pajaro

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Ya don’t mean they shouldn’t exist. Having people spend money in the city and keep the economy going all good outcomes.
personally could do without the people getting shitfaced on the street and revving their cars at 2am etc. again, recognize I am merely expressing my own preference and comes across as a NIMBY/gentrifier.
regardless of personal preference, guess time will tell what direction things will go. Id like to bet on these being pushed out, given how these establishments used to be more east by John st. Also people west of Bathurst already gearing up (given the communities in Facebook etc.) to try to avoid these establishments spilling westward…
 

UtakataNoAnnex

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I think it's the type of people who show up to these establishments that sully the reputation. As in the anecdote, I have gone to these to dance and enjoy myself, not to prove some pointless attitude nor allow what I've consumed to become my master. I can only presume if there where more my type, these clubs would be far less of an issue.

...that said, I too believe it's the evolution of that area that's the main driving force of the pushback on this scene of sorts. That is, the need for densification that will be likely further fueled by a new subway stop...instead of being pushed out by some nefarious Puritan forces at work in City Hall. Or least how I understand it in the opinion.
 

urbanexplorer

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I don’t disagree that those two developments will bring in crowds, but this is not the same 2AM crowd as what currently exists on King and around the city. And that’s the type of nightlife that’s being squeezed out. From what we’ve seen from The Well retail leases, it’ll be about as dead as the financial district at night.
If I remember correctly, there is going to be several bars and restaurants as part of The Well that I wager are going to be just as busy as the rest of the bars on King St. Look at the Keg east of Portland for example, it's always packed. And these are set up to be even less "big box" feeling.

Discounting that, half the places I mentioned in my previous list are already part of new developments that won't be redeveloped again (i.e Dasha - 620 King, Lov - 620 King, Oretta - 633 King , lavelle 633 King, 1 Hotel, Cada Madeira are a few examples in new builds).

But even putting that aside, there have been dozens of new openings within the few blocks surrounding this intersection throughout and post COVID. I don't see that trend slowing down. We're kind of getting away from the original point though which was Bathurst station = the end of entertainment options in the surrounding area. I've provided a pretty strong argument as to why I think not IMO but if you don't think this POV is invalid then I guess we'll have to wait and see 🤷‍♂️.
 

sam15989

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Great discussion folks, time will tell. Let's revisit this thread in 2030 when the station is hopefully open 🤣
 

sam15989

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You do realize that major infrastructure construction usually causes major disruptions for years right? And once that's complete (or near complete), there's usually a boom in development that follows due to substantially increased property values.

So in other words, if the construction of the King-Bathurst station doesnt kill off the entertainment scene around the area, the increased development almost immediately after most likely will. Heck, even without the construction of this station there are developments in the pipeline that are slated to wipe out some more bars in the area. There's really only a handful of entertainment venues along King between Bathurst and Spadina, and you'd be surprised at how many people each venue brings in independently

Can you tell us the developments in the pipeline in the area that would wipe out some more bars? Thank you for the insight in advance.
 

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