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syn

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1. Capacity: The original post didn't even mention capacity. This is just putting words in others' mouths. The only things that should dictate capacity are demand and cost.
2. Speed: Please explain how a grade separated, above ground train is slower than a grade separated tunneled train. Is the Allen Rd section of YUS slower than the rest?
3. Quality: Again, please explain how a grade separated, above ground train is "lower quality" than an underground train.

The point was that the same thing that are cited as benefits for the Ontario Line are being completely ignored for the Crosstown.

"Capacity: The original post didn't even mention capacity. This is just putting words in others' mouths. The only things that should dictate capacity are demand and cost."

That's the point. How can you claim it's worth the cost savings while ignoring such a significant factor? In contrast he claims the Crosstown LRT will be over capacity from day 1, and cost saving seem to be a non-factor.
 

sche

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The point was that the same thing that are cited as benefits for the Ontario Line are being completely ignored for the Crosstown.

"Capacity: The original post didn't even mention capacity. This is just putting words in others' mouths. The only things that should dictate capacity are demand and cost."

That's the point. How can you claim it's worth the cost savings while ignoring such a significant factor? In contrast he claims the Crosstown LRT will be over capacity from day 1, and cost saving seem to be a non-factor.
Again, completely twisting others' words.

How can you claim it's worth the cost savings while ignoring such a significant factor?
I didn't even make such a claim in that post???

In contrast he claims the Crosstown LRT will be over capacity from day 1, and cost saving seem to be a non-factor.
Literally *nobody* is claiming that ECLRT will be over capacity on day 1.
 

officedweller

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At the very least, Toronto should recycle the trees into furniture, flooring, or paper cheques to the developers.

Recycling for furniture or other woodworking sometimes happens in Vancouver.
... and in this case, the community seems attached to the trees, so it would be a goodwill gesture to donate the wood.
 

officedweller

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I watched the Ontario Line Town Hall that just finished and one thing that caught my attention was Malcoms comment saying "The 3 contracts are going to run for around 9+ years". Did I hear that right?
Hopefully that incudes some commissioning time, warranty follow-up and maybe even initial operations and handover.
 

W. K. Lis

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This image is from behind Iqbal Halal Foods, at Thorncliffe Pk Dr..
1638049669454.png

From link.

The powers-that-be don't want to use the hydro corridor because of the possible problems with stray electrical charges from the overhead hydro lines.

Has anyone looked into using a Faraday cage surrounding the rail vehicle yard? A Faraday cage or Faraday shield is an enclosure used to block electromagnetic fields. A Faraday shield may be formed by a continuous covering of conductive material, or in the case of a Faraday cage, by a mesh of such materials. Faraday cages are named after scientist Michael Faraday, who invented them in 1836.

faraday-cage-emf-protection-465x400.jpg.webp
From link.

Would the people opposed to the current proposed rail yard location help in paying for the cage and locating it under the hydro lines?
 

BB ON

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The problem isn't stray EM fields. It's maintenance access and liability for Hydro One, so they don't allow it.
 

syn

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Again, completely twisting others' words.

How can you claim it's worth the cost savings while ignoring such a significant factor?
I didn't even make such a claim in that post???

In contrast he claims the Crosstown LRT will be over capacity from day 1, and cost saving seem to be a non-factor.
Literally *nobody* is claiming that ECLRT will be over capacity on day 1.

 

sche

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OK clearly I glossed over that post.

But in any case, the arguments for OL vs RL and against ECLRT are completely different.

ECLRT is using the wrong technology for its purpose. You pretty much never see low floor LRT used in long subway tunnels, especially when building a brand new line. Low floor LRT trains have bogies that stick above the floor level, which means the corridor in the middle of the train is cramped and narrow, the seats are laid out really inefficiently, and moving along the length of a crowded train is difficult or impossible. Boarding and alighting becomes much slower becuase of the small doors and inefficient circulation inside, which makes it hard for people to move in and out. The at-grade section will also limit possible headways, which further decreases capacity. All of this means to achieve the same capacity, you need to build much longer platforms, which for underground stations, is a lot of money.

ECLRT did not trade capacity for cost, it spent money poorly on a technology that provides worse capacity per dollar on an underground line, while sacrificing speed and reliability by putting the above ground section at street level.

Note how ECLRT's maxed out capacity is about 15k ppdph with 90m trains and platforms at 2 minute headways. Now note that the Canada Line's max capacity is also 15k ppdph at 2 minute headways, except the Canada Line gets to that number with *50m* trains and platforms.

What's more, with Canada Line, headways could realistically be reduced to 90 seconds at peak due to full grade separation and large doors. So you could probably even get away with even shorter trains for 15k ppdph light metro. This is impossible with surface low floor LRT due to traffic lights and also slow boarding and alighting on low floor trains.

Obviously 50m underground stations are much cheaper than 90m underground stations. That money could be spent on elevating the surface section and replacing the surface stops with 50m elevated stations (you also save some money from not having to rebuild the whole street to fit a median LRT). Maybe it works out to being slightly cheaper or more expensive for light metro, but regardless, it's a dramatically better system (same capacity but faster, more reliable, more frequent) for a similar price. The only caveat is that the higher speed would likely attract more riders causing more capacity to be needed, and thus necessitating a higher cost to add that extra capacity, but that's a good problem to have.

OL is completely different. You can't build a significantly higher capacity, higher speed, or otherwise better system along the same corridor with the same stations for the same cost (if you don't consider things like becoming more competent and building at European prices, or politically impossible options like demolishing homes for the entire corridor or elevated on Pape or Queen). The only way to add capacity would be to lengthen platforms, which is money, so it really is trading capacity for cost.
 

W. K. Lis

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the original crosstown said "completion in 2019 and look where we are now.... im saying OL isnt done till 2032.
The "Downtown Relief Line" was supposed to be completed by 2029. It was replaced by the "Ontario Line", with a target date of 2032. (Insert laugh track here.) Doug Ford's ego needs to be satisfied by some sort of "legacy", preferably with his portrait embossed someplace. (Insert tears of laughter here.)
 

innsertnamehere

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The "Downtown Relief Line" was supposed to be completed by 2029. It was replaced by the "Ontario Line", with a target date of 2032. (Insert laugh track here.) Doug Ford's ego needs to be satisfied by some sort of "legacy", preferably with his portrait embossed someplace. (Insert tears of laughter here.)
you have the two dates reversed ;)

The OL has a "set" date of 2029, with delays likely like every subway project.

The RL had a date of 2031, with delays likely like every subway project.
 

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