News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 5.8K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 29K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 2.8K     0 

toronto647

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 7, 2020
Messages
515
Reaction score
983
interesting piece by toronto life.
really goes in depth behind the scenes with the jimmie simpson people, the minto place people. gives perspectives from all sides.
Great read... We are already to deep and the line is going to be built. Let's see what can be salvaged by these various parties before the upcoming election. I doubt much but who knows.
 

allengeorge

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jun 27, 2019
Messages
1,353
Reaction score
3,229
interesting piece by toronto life.
really goes in depth behind the scenes with the jimmie simpson people, the minto place people. gives perspectives from all sides.
Great article! I’m surprised to see Toronto Life do an article beyond the most inane :)

“In consultations for the previous relief line, the TTC met with community members over years. They brought multiple options. In the end, they came to a plan that buried the Riverside stretch of track underground, which the neighbourhood supported. That is not how Metrolinx does things. “What we do on our projects is we work out technically what is the best and the right option to follow,” says Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster. “And then we consult on how to implement that option. This is our mandate.

Interesting: I think I pointed this out this difference in expectations as the fundamental reason why people are so pissed off at the consultations.
 

innsertnamehere

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Messages
17,117
Reaction score
15,983
City:
Toronto
Great article! I’m surprised to see Toronto Life do an article beyond the most inane :)



Interesting: I think I pointed this out this difference in expectations as the fundamental reason why people are so pissed off at the consultations.
It's interesting as the headline seems to be anti-Ontario Line but if you read to the end the article acknowledges the line is needed and should be built.

I genuinely believe the Metrolinx way is less than perfect but much better. The other way, as the article mentions, gets you nowhere with years of pointless study and wasted money with little, if anything getting built in fear of ruffling a few feathers.
 

allengeorge

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jun 27, 2019
Messages
1,353
Reaction score
3,229
I genuinely believe the Metrolinx way is less than perfect but much better. The other way, as the article mentions, gets you nowhere with years of pointless study and wasted money with little, if anything getting built in fear of ruffling a few feathers.
Agreed. At the end of the day, Toronto has to get beyond its ducking hard decisions and you know...actually making a decision and taking action on it. Unfortunately this is something Council is extremely loath to do.

That said, I do think there's got to be some expectation level-setting before going into these meetings. Also, people have to feel like the same criteria are being applied everywhere; as the article pointed out, people look at other projects like the Yonge North Extension, see changes made at late stages - and this emboldens them, makes them feel like these firm positions aren't as firm as they're made out to be.
 

asher__jo

Active Member
Member Bio
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Messages
472
Reaction score
688
City:
Winnipeg
The article strikes a really good balance of explaining concerns with the "consultation" of the Ontario line, while also articulating that we cannot capitulate to NIMBY's/anti-change advocates if we ever want transit built. The irony of Metrolinx being run out of Queen's Park is that it cannot be hijacked by local residents to get it to make more expensive decisions because they dislike how a project inconveniences them. Of course I'd like to see Metrolinx reformed so that qualified local representatives are making the decisions and it would be insulated from political meddling.
 

MisterF

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
3,518
Reaction score
2,835
Agreed. At the end of the day, Toronto has to get beyond its ducking hard decisions and you know...actually making a decision and taking action on it. Unfortunately this is something Council is extremely loath to do.

That said, I do think there's got to be some expectation level-setting before going into these meetings. Also, people have to feel like the same criteria are being applied everywhere; as the article pointed out, people look at other projects like the Yonge North Extension, see changes made at late stages - and this emboldens them, makes them feel like these firm positions aren't as firm as they're made out to be.
That's just it though, when it comes to the Relief Line Toronto wasn't ducking hard decisions at all. It made the hard decisions and approved the alignment. And it was well on its way to making the hard decisions on phase 2 to Don Mills when the province stepped in and prevented them from doing that. Rightly or wrongly, that's why the opposition is so fierce, both in Riverside and in Thornhill: the province is undoing decisions that have already been made. If they had just continued the work that was already done then nobody would be complaining. This is a mess of the province's making, not the city's.
 

innsertnamehere

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Messages
17,117
Reaction score
15,983
City:
Toronto
Toronto didn't make hard decisions on it though - it decided to spend a billion dollars to avoid pissing off a handful of homeowners in Leslieville, and resulted in a much more expensive project which had worse final outcomes.

They did the same thing on the scarborough subway, spending millions upon millions to avoid expropriating a handful of houses.

The myth of the zero-impact infrastructure is false and trying to achieve it does nothing but create worse overall outcomes.
 

denfromoakvillemilton

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
7,083
Reaction score
1,077
Toronto didn't make hard decisions on it though - it decided to spend a billion dollars to avoid pissing off a handful of homeowners in Leslieville, and resulted in a much more expensive project which had worse final outcomes.

They did the same thing on the scarborough subway, spending millions upon millions to avoid expropriating a handful of houses.

The myth of the zero-impact infrastructure is false and trying to achieve it does nothing but create worse overall outcomes.
Nothing wrong with avoiding complaining residents. Projects are best done when quiet. The DRL didn't go through a park, that was good. It wasn't perfect at all. Both lines use Queen Street rather then King for political purposes.
 

Mr Finish Line

New Member
Member Bio
Joined
Oct 26, 2021
Messages
67
Reaction score
187
What drives me nuts is the Riverside people are conflating GO Expansion with the Ontario Line. They seemed to have been completely oblivious to the impacts of GO Expansion which quadruples the number of huge heavy trains through the corridor. They only clued in once the OL was announced because subways get all the headlines. If you watch/listen to the neighbourhood sound demos, the small OL trains are a drop in the bucket compared to the GO trains. Yes the extra tracks and stations increase the scope of construction, but then you get subway stops in your neighbourhood. The sound demos clearly show the main culprit of noise, and that's the diesel locos. GO Expansion is keeping the same amount of diesel trains to run service beyond the electrification boundary to Bowmanville. The residents should fight the diesel trains instead of the OL. Changing these to bi-mode trains so the corridor is all electric would make it quieter than it is today.
 

Rainforest

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
4,842
Reaction score
2,815
What drives me nuts is the Riverside people are conflating GO Expansion with the Ontario Line. They seemed to have been completely oblivious to the impacts of GO Expansion which quadruples the number of huge heavy trains through the corridor. They only clued in once the OL was announced because subways get all the headlines. If you watch/listen to the neighbourhood sound demos, the small OL trains are a drop in the bucket compared to the GO trains. Yes the extra tracks and stations increase the scope of construction, but then you get subway stops in your neighbourhood. The sound demos clearly show the main culprit of noise, and that's the diesel locos. GO Expansion is keeping the same amount of diesel trains to run service beyond the electrification boundary to Bowmanville. The residents should fight the diesel trains instead of the OL. Changing these to bi-mode trains so the corridor is all electric would make it quieter than it is today.

Very good point. It might be cheaper to upgrade the GO trains from diesel to bi-mode than to mess with the subway route or design; and the former may produce a better outcome for the residents.
 

denfromoakvillemilton

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
7,083
Reaction score
1,077
Very good point. It might be cheaper to upgrade the GO trains from diesel to bi-mode than to mess with the subway route or design; and the former may produce a better outcome for the residents.
What drives me nuts is the Riverside people are conflating GO Expansion with the Ontario Line. They seemed to have been completely oblivious to the impacts of GO Expansion which quadruples the number of huge heavy trains through the corridor. They only clued in once the OL was announced because subways get all the headlines. If you watch/listen to the neighbourhood sound demos, the small OL trains are a drop in the bucket compared to the GO trains. Yes the extra tracks and stations increase the scope of construction, but then you get subway stops in your neighbourhood. The sound demos clearly show the main culprit of noise, and that's the diesel locos. GO Expansion is keeping the same amount of diesel trains to run service beyond the electrification boundary to Bowmanville. The residents should fight the diesel trains instead of the OL. Changing these to bi-mode trains so the corridor is all electric would make it quieter than it is today.

Well I mean we are all cramming it in there. IF the OL had stuck to the DRL route, no one would complain. This is MX's idea to go through the Lakeshore east train route. This is the result.
 

allengeorge

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Jun 27, 2019
Messages
1,353
Reaction score
3,229
Well I mean we are all cramming it in there. IF the OL had stuck to the DRL route, no one would complain. This is MX's idea to go through the Lakeshore east train route. This is the result.
The point the poster was making was that if noise was the major concern it would exist regardless of whether the OL was built through the corridor. In that case a (potentially) more productive approach would be the conversion of diesel operations in that corridor to electric.
 

JasonParis

Moderator
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
6,600
Reaction score
1,890
City:
Toronto
I'm not sure it strikes a "really good balance". It gives a huge amount of air time to a small handful of people who will be negatively impacted. It does provide various sides, but not in proportion to the number of people on each side.
Save Jimmie Simpson always say they speak for all residents. If you attend meetings, they claim "nobody wants this." Of course, it is hyperbole, but it would at least be nice to get a technical poll of the neighbourhood to see how many are just fine with the plans. I suspect it is way more than SJS touts. In fact, I know people who live on DeGrassi and one street over who are fine with it. I live within 800 m and I'm fine with it too as are almost everyone I speak to in the area. The one friend I know in the neighbourhood who is against it bases her thoughts on SJS' lies that the park is going and MetroLIES can't be trusted.
 

denfromoakvillemilton

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
7,083
Reaction score
1,077
Save Jimmie Simpson always say they speak for all residents. If you attend meetings, they claim "nobody wants this." Of course, it is hyperbole, but it would at least be nice to get a technical poll of the neighbourhood to see how many are just fine with the plans. I suspect it is way more than SJS touts. In fact, I know people who live on DeGrassi and one street over who are fine with it. I live within 800 m and I'm fine with it too as are almost everyone I speak to in the area. The one friend I know in the neighbourhood who is against it bases her thoughts on SJS' lies that the park is going and MetroLIES can't be trusted.
I mean a part of the park was going (I think it still should actually, it's a tight fit.) Then again, these people will complain about anything. I bet most of the neighborhoods supports.
The point the poster was making was that if noise was the major concern it would exist regardless of whether the OL was built through the corridor. In that case a (potentially) more productive approach would be the conversion of diesel operations in that corridor to electric.
Fair enough.
 

Top