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fanoftoronto

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... metrolinx should be choosing a minimal most non-invasive design for the don river valley bridge. However this is metrolinx .. so expect max devastation and a pillar party.

This is from the Ontario Line Metrolinx page for conceptual rendering.

1650833950894.png


1650834018180.png
 

turini2

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Curious if there are any designs yet? Wonder if they'll be concrete or steel?
As with the stations, until the Civil, Stations, Tunnel contracts are signed and sealed - any rendering/image of the Don Crossing you see is a placeholder. Design teams for the south contract include major companies such as Arup, AECOM and IBI.
It remains to be seen how good a 'client' Metrolinx is!
 

cplchanb

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This is from the Ontario Line Metrolinx page for conceptual rendering.
This is honestly the best bridge for the job. Simple, and generally aesthetically pleasing or at the very least neutral. We considering the scope and how far behind we are in terms of infrastructure, we can't afford to waste time and money with glitz and glamor
 

W. K. Lis

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This is honestly the best bridge for the job. Simple, and generally aesthetically pleasing or at the very least neutral. We considering the scope and how far behind we are in terms of infrastructure, we can't afford to waste time and money with glitz and glamor
...and one of the standard 50 shades of Toronto grey. 🤮
 

hawc

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I'm sure this is way too early, but are there any renderings of the trains? I assume it's not the same as on the Eglinton LRT line or are they?
 

Amare

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I'm sure this is way too early, but are there any renderings of the trains? I assume it's not the same as on the Eglinton LRT line or are they?
No renderings yet as we dont even know what vehicles will be used. But just have the picture grey in your head, and you're already half of the way there.
 

generalcanada

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I'm sure this is way too early, but are there any renderings of the trains? I assume it's not the same as on the Eglinton LRT line or are they?
The trains would be closer in design to TTC's line 3. not as long as the rockets but much more frequent.

There are 3 teams in the RSSOM RFP which should close by the end of the year. unlike the GO Expansion we should hear about the exact rolling stock as soon as the deal closes

the 3 vehicle bidders if im reading it right should be

siemens, hitachi and then alstom with Deutsche bahn as operators interestingly enough.

my bets: alstom with deutsche bahn will win

siemens is proposing their inspiro models

hitachi will probably look like the copenhagen model with the huge open front window.

and then theres alstom with the metropolis.

again we will know by the end of the year which model we are getting
 

TheTigerMaster

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Yes, back when Kipling station was built and the platform for it was installed.


Not yet. It does get busy, there is a lot of growth at Islington, Kipling, and the East & West Malls, and if an extension does occur it could start to run up against the existing capacity constraints. A line from Humber Loop to the Airport via Kipling hits the big growth areas (Etobicoke Waterfront, New Etobicoke Center @ Kipling, the East/West Malls, the Airport Corporate Centre, and the GTAA Hub.

View attachment 393931
I'd much rather see this line travel to northern Etobicoke than the airport.

Even with TYSSE and FWLRT, northern Etobicoke remains amongst the most isolated regions in the city via transit. Getting a rapid transit to the northwestern region of the city should be a priority. A subway there would also certainly generate far more ridership than a connection to the airport.

The airport is already served by UPX, it will be served by RER, and it'll also presumably be served by Crosstown West as well. I don't view yet another airport connection as a priority. And especially not an Ontario Line connection, since that would largely be duplicating the UPX/RER service pattern.

On a lighter note, I'm happy that in 2022 Toronto is finally in a position where I can legitimately complain that we might be building too many airport connections 😄
 

TheTigerMaster

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Interchange from where to where? Line 2 to Liberty Village / CNE take Line C (Kitchener), Line 2 to Airport or Downtown take UP, going to north downtown stay on Line 2 to St George or Yonge, going into the neighbourhood transfer onto the bus or streetcar. What is the gap that an Ontario Line to Dundas West is expected to fill?


The frequent service from Dundas West to downtown will be new... how can it be overstressed on day one? Where is the network stress that is being relieved?


The 191 doesn't stop at all the developments along the way or the Renforth airport corporate centre. Have you been on the TTC 111 and 112, plus the Mississauga 35, 107, and 109 which all currently take people from Kipling to Eglinton and 427 area? How does an Ontario Line to Dundas West improve the bus capacity challenge on Dufferin better than non-stop Dundas West to Liberty Village service?


This loop is the provincial plan. I'm more interested in the "U" of the Ontario Line than the "O" which includes the connection across the top which will not need Ontario Line capacity for a while. I agree that at the airport or at 407 a transfer to a Oakville-Oshawa 403-407 connection of some sort likely makes more sense in the shorter term. However, if the density proposed at 7 & Weston, VMC, Richmond Hill Centre (south of Bridge and High Tech), Beaver Creek, and Markham Centre all materialize that is going to be a dense corridor that is ill served by asking people to walk from Highway 7 to the freeway (almost a 1km walk from most buildings) and I can see at some point VIVA will not serve that capacity well... but again... not a high priority in the short term because VIVA reaching capacity is a ways off now.


If you are in Humber Bay Shores and want to go somewhere other than a location other than downtown or Lakeshore West, what option is there? If you are arguing the point that the Ontario Line should end at Exhibition, then I can understand that perspective... it is the perspective that north-south capacity is adequately served. If you are arguing the point that somehow having the Ontario Line go Dundas West makes sense, then I don't understand that at all because that line already exists (Line C for express, and 504 for a more local option), and to get to Dundas West from Exhibition you would likely pass under SFH to serve places already served.

Why would someone look at this map and say "that blue line should really follow almost exactly the red ones".
View attachment 394087

it would probably make more sense to build ontario line along the gardiner with subway length stops (so it sort of works as queensway rapid transit), have it loop into sherway to connect to future line 2 extension (underground) and then have it run north along the 427 until it hits pearson with less aggressive stop spacing

it'd probably suck in terms of accessibility as we'd have elevated stations and have really poor ridership along the N-S portion north of sherway, but it'd be a lot better pill to swallow.
The area is already served by a GO line, so the OL also going through the area seems like overkill to me.

I'd much rather see southern Etobicoke served by an LRT line between Exhibition OL Station and Long Branch (roughly speaking) via the TTC Queensway ROW. It'll be very cost effective, and would provide area residents with a quick one-transfer ride to the downtown core.

If we design this thing right, the LRT would only have two traffic lights between Exhibition Station and the dense residential developments at Park Lawn (circled on @EnviroTO's map).

West of Park Lawn, the LRT would interact with more traffic lights, however I'm not as concerned about that given the relatively modest ridership we'd see in that area (I suppose we could elevate it if necessary, but that seems like overkill).

LRT capacity could be an issue though. Such a convenient connection from Park Lawn to the Downtown core would induce a lot of Downtown-bound demand from this already very dense area. We'd likely have to figure out how to run the LRV's in two car sets, without impeding the operations of the TTC legacy streetcar network.

As for the Ontario Line, it absolutely needs to travel up Dufferin. It's one of our busiest, most unreliable and slowest bus routes in the city. The Ontario Line is pretty much the one and only opportunity we have to fix Dufferin Street transit.
 
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TheTigerMaster

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The area is already served by a GO line, so the OL also going through the area seems like overkill to me.

I'd much rather see southern Etobicoke served by an LRT line between Exhibition OL Station and Long Branch (roughly speaking) via the TTC Queensway ROW. It'll be very cost effective, and would provide area residents with a quick one-transfer ride to the downtown core.

If we design this thing right, the LRT would only have two traffic lights between Exhibition Station and the dense residential developments at Park Lawn (circled on @EnviroTO's map).

West of Park Lawn, the LRT would interact with more traffic lights, however I'm not as concerned about that given the relatively modest ridership we'd see in that area (I suppose we could elevate it if necessary, but that seems like overkill).

LRT capacity would be an issue though. We'd have to figure out how to run the LRV's in perhaps two or three car trains through the area, without impeding the operations of the TTC legacy streetcar network. Storage locations for these LRV's might also need to be found along the route, since running long trains in mixed traffic to access a TTC yard doesn't seem operationally viable.

As for the Ontario Line, it absolutely needs to travel up Dufferin. It's one of our busiest, most unreliable and slowest bus routes in the city. The Ontario Line is pretty much the one and only opportunity we have to fix Dufferin Street transit.
I'm bored, so I made a map (it's 2 AM... I really should go to sleep)

Screen Shot 2022-04-25 at 1.22.56 AM.png
'
The LRT line from my last post shown in red, GO in green, and the OL in blue.

Looking at this map, I'm just realizing how insanely well used the Dufferin Subway would be.

Starting from the south, we'd likely see 10 stations:
  • King West and Queen West stations would be very well used, because... well, its King and Queen west. Also, Liberty Village.
  • Dundas station would see modest, but still very good ridership, due to its streetcar connection. But I'm sure this area would see huge intensification with the subway.
  • College Station would serve both Dufferin Mall and the College Streetcar, so this would be tremendously busy. Dufferin Mall is already one of the busiest malls in the city. Dufferin Mall also has plenty of intensification planed around it, which would further drive ridership.
  • Bloor-Dufferin Station would be amongst the most used stations on the subway network. Almost anyone travelling on Line 2 from west of Dufferin to the Downtown core would transfer to the Ontario Line. Heavy residential intensification is already planned for the area, and I wouldn't be surprised to see commercial and office intensification as well with the Ontario Line (the proximity to Downtown and Line 2 would make this an extremely attractive location of commercial and office use). This would also relieve Line 2 crowding, which would make Line 2 western extension more viable.
  • The area around Dupont and Dufferin is also seeing heavy intensification with the new Gallery redevelopment. And this is an area that could easily absorb more intensification. This would be a very busy station
  • Davenport would see merely modest ridership, with one relatively low ridership bus route, and not a whole lot of intensification.
  • St Clair would connect to the streetcar, and the surrounding area is already pretty dense. Riders of the 512 would favour the Ontario Line over Line 1 to access the Downtown core.
  • Rogers would see only modest ridership.
  • Eglinton station would connect to Line 5, and generate a pretty large number of transfers from Crosstown West. It would also connect to the busy 29 Dufferin bus, which would continue to run between Eglinton and Wilson.
It’s also worth noting that the Dufferin Subway would massively reduce crowding on our streetcar network.

I would suggest continuing the line north on Dufferin towards Sheppard (perhaps elevated), but the proximity to the Spadina Line would eliminate that opportunity. We continue to pay the price for putting the Spadina Line on Allen Road.

Anyways, to compensate for our Spadina Line mistake, I'd perhaps look into installing some kind of BRT for the 29 Dufferin. Given the proximity to rapid transit and the 401, the areas of Dufferin north of Eglinton are suitable for huge North York Centre-style intensification, but it's growth potential is kneecapped by traffic congestion, and poor accessibility to the Spadina Line. So in my mind a Dufferin North BRT absolutely should happen if the Ontario Line reaches Dufferin/Eglinton.

Nevertheless, even with the Ontario Line terminating at Dufferin/Eglinton, the Eglinton to Exhibition segment would be extremely well used. We'd likely see in excess of 15,000 riders at the busiest point of this extension (southbound into Exhibition) in the AM rush hour in 2041, and I feel like that’s a rather modest prediction given Dufferin’s intensification potential.

The Dufferin corridor in general just has so much potential for urban intensification with the introduction of this subway line. Dare I say it, the Ontario Line on Dufferin Street could far exceed the growth that the Yonge Line created for North York Centre. It's a longer corridor that's already seeing huge growth, even without the subway. And Dufferin would be even more attractive than North York Centre for commercial and office development. In time, Dufferin could become the single densest corridor in the city outside the Downtown core (perhaps in terms of population and jobs).

If it wasn't for the Yonge Line being completely over capacity, Dufferin Street would be #1 priority for a subway extension. In my mind, no other potential subway corridor is primed to be as heavily used, or as transformational in terms of land use. Not even the Ontario Line north extension to Sheppard.

So, yeah, I'm probably Toronto's #1 fan of a Dufferin Street subway right now 😅

Edit: Added the Dufferin North BRT because I couldn't help myself and because it makes too much sense.

Screen Shot 2022-04-25 at 4.02.57 AM.png
 
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hawc

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Surely you want to be further west than Dufferin if you're going to do a Lake to 401 subway of that scale?

I mean you're barely a few streets over from the University line.

Run it up Keele/Weston Road or run it up Royal York if you want to be properly inclusive.

Dufferin?
 

crs1026

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Park Lawn GO is going to be pretty revolutionary for that area, particularly with GO expansion.

Dare we hope that it will open before the Christie lands are developed?

I’m probably the lone voice in the room, but I really don’t see the need to extend the Ontario Line much further west than Roncesvalles. Putting it anywhere close to the lake will encourage a wall of high rises that totally cuts off the lake from the community. We should utilise the GO LSE as the higher order transit linkage to southern Etobicoke. Use LRT along Queensway, and for north-south linkages. GO Milton, with a North Toronto extension, as the Line 2 ”relief Line”.

I would extend Line 2 to Cloverdale, which I bet would reverse the political tide in Mississauga.

- Paul
 

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